Hi fellows,

Some of you are eagerly waiting for more pictures of my last find, which seems to be a Yellow Gold version of the A 3817:


As I did never see this before I would really appreciate further informations about this model, images of other examples, stories, etc., but most of all a vibrant discussion about my watch.

Following are more documentary images:










In the meantime I was told about another watch in a similar case but with different dial featuring a decimal scale. Maybe it will be shown here, too.

Looking froward to your comments.

Cheers,

Mick

 

Mick,

Thanks for the high quality pictures...any chance you can let us know: 1) is there a discernible model number on the case back (I can't see one in the photos) and 2) where you got it?

Having never seen a YG version of an A 3817 before, it's hard to say what's happened - Is this an elaborate franken or unique model?

Things against it:
The crown and possibly pushers are not original.
The hand in the seconds register is incorrect and the other subdial hands look to be replacements (they're thicker than the original set).
The hour markers have been badly relumed.
The case has been (over) polished.
Never seen before in any reference book or period-correct catalog.

Things for it:
Both the main hands and markers are gold (something Zenith did with their gold watches at the time).
The hour markers appear to be correctly sized (the other gold models had A386 length markers, so unless someone plated them, they are original).
The movement has "3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels" with "B Swiss Made" under balance, which was used with the early EPs.
The hallmarks on the gold case seem correct.

Almost all of the things against it can be explained away as cosmetic or service-related. Also, we've seen a few one-off gold models made by Zenith for select customers around this time, so this squarely falls into the realm of possibility.

Frankly, it's times like these that I wish Zenith was more active in the vintage community.

 

Thanks Mick. This is surely the nicest G3817 I've seen.

I agree with Mike... the gold-toned hour markers tell me that the dial is probably original to the watch. Same goes for the gold-toned hour and minute hands. The red paddle hand and subdial hands look like replacements.

The case maker is Manufacture Favre & Perret, SA, of La Chaux-de-Fonds (hammerhead #115), one of the last high-end, independent Swiss case makers before being gobbled up by Swatch in 1999.

http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/servi...uction_activities_in_the_luxury_watch_segment

The case has been polished, but the bevel edges remain straight. One hopes that a case number has not been polished off.

I suspect, as Mike suggests, that your watch was a special order for someone special, like this one:

http://omegaforums.net/index.php?threads/Interesting-Early-Luna.4211/#post-48693

 

Hello Lou,

No, there is not one complete digit or character. In the wood of micro and mini scratches I can detect only one deeper stroke which might be the rest of a digit at the left side of a serial number:



Someone with better eyes may see here more …


Cheers,


Mick

 

Hi Mike,

Sorry, no numbers on the back.

I got the watch from a dealer which does not disclose his source. But I will try to get more infos.

Thank you very much for your comprehensible assessment.

Here is a close-up illustrating some of your points:


At the end of the discussion I will need to know how to fix some of your "against" items, like crown and pushers.

Regards,

Mick

 

Hi,

Thanks. Any proof for the reference number?

Could you please elaborate more on the hands?

Here is a close-up of the hallmarks:

Unfortunately no number on the back.

May I assume that Zenith does no longer have the old account books?

Cheers,


Mick

 

I think the subdial hands should look more like this. The lume on the replacement sweeping seconds hand has a more greenish luminova colour versus a yellowish colour on the original. Probably the reason why they relumed the markers, to match. Sorry, bad phone pic.

 

No proof for the reference number, thus the wink. I think there will not be a reference number, as I believe this watch is a one-off.

The metallic portions of the hour and minute hands have a gold tone, like the hour markers. The red paddle hand and the subdial hands look too new, and the subdial hands have pointy tops typical of service replacements for an early El P.

The Zenith archives are subpar and hard to access. You might have to send it to Zenith for service to get any helpful info from them... but I'll bet they know nothing about this watch... and I wouldn't send it to the factory for fear of more polishing or hand-swapping. It is what it is, though... a real Zenith product, IMO.

 

Hi,

Thank you very much for the illustration.

Later we will discuss how I can improve the look of the watch. Equally colored lume is certainly one point.

Cheers,

Mick

 

Hi,

I thought so, therefore my smiley winking yours.

Thanks for the lesson about the sub dial needles.

So no difference to other brands Maybe I will visit the manufacture and present the watch in March.

Cheers,

Mick

 

Hi Lou,

So did I

Yes, I know. In my own documents, photos, web server directory, etc. the watch is referenced as "G3817?".

Thank you very much for your efforts, historical research, and judgement.

I still hope, that the other watch with the decimal scale on the rehaut will be presented here.

Cheers,

Mick

 

As someone who is just learning about vintage watches, I was wondering how much more valuable would a one-off gold 3817 be compared to a stock a3817? Common sense would make me think it would be very valuable..but I wondered considering there is nothing to document what the watch is and how many of it's kind were made.

 

I think you've nailed it. Authenticity is paramount, and it's much harder to prove that with an undocumented one-off. Then, for it to have value, at least two people have to want it. My guess is that an A3817 in good shape would have more value than this watch on the open market. I would give a slight edge to the "G3817" if it were well documented... especially if the documentation said something like "made by special order for Mr. Steve McQueen."

 

Yes, this watch reflects an individual's taste, with some special work put in... I can't see it as a Franken-for-profit.

 

Although next time maybe upload the pics instead of linking to images on a very slow server. It makes the page load take f o r e v e r

 

Dear all,

Sorry to chime in like this...but most of you guys might know me already and I must admit I'm following this great forum from time to time as well. Zenith is my second big love (watch wise that is ), after Heuer of course.

So, about our good friend Mick's rare find. When I saw Mick's picture of this watch I was quite frustrated...here's why;

Almost about a year ago my brother contacted me on the phone, saying he was on a watch and jewelry fair in Belgium and that he had seen a rather interesting Zenith El Primero. Besides that my brother and I are both goldsmiths we also share a bit of passion related to vintage watches (my fault I guess), but he's not so active as me in this field, not so knowledgable either. Not that I pretend to have much knowledge related to Zenith in fact but I do know a thing or two concerning the El Primero range...

Anyway, he described me the watch and I couldn't quite understand exactly what model he was talking about...as when I put all the descriptions together and added them...I could only tell him to run away from that (presumably Italian) seller...as it just didn't sound right to me at all. I asked him maybe 10 times if he was sure the case was solid yellow gold...my brother confirmed me 10 times it was solid gold, 18 karat and yellow. I could not believe. Ofcourse I asked him to send me some pictures...but that didn't seem to work either at that time...so I only received the pictures when he got home. Excuse me for the very bad quality, they are all I have right now.

Up untill the day I saw Mick's "G3817" I thought it was a complete franken and let it for what it was worth, also because I did only see it on the very bad pictures my brother took with his phone and I did not held the watch in my own hands.

Given the fact of Mick's recent discovery I have to believe both these watches are original. At least they started their lives within the Zenith factories. Maybe some more of these will surface in the future to come. Mick's example seems far more OK then the one in my pictures (service dial with steel markers?), case on the other hand seem to be much sharper in my pictures with even a serial number. I'm not sure if there are magicians here on the forum who can make the serial in my pictures readable?? Minute and hour hands seem OK to my eyes. And I have a very strong impression crown and pushers are similar on both watches. Pushers a bit more rounded as we are used to see...


Some more food for discussion

Best,
abel.