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ISO a Breitling Navitimer (806) Expert!

jrhave2
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arcadelt arcadelt
I have both an 806 and 81600 - I much prefer the latter. BTW, I think apart from the Chronograph second hand and the crystal, the one you are looking at is a nice example and probably worth what they are asking, especially if it comes serviced and with some for of warranty.

Good to know! Thanks! I'm going to spend more time reviewing the various references, but I'm leaning in this direction. Really loved the look on the wrist...
 
jrhave2
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chronoboy64 chronoboy64
For $4k you should be able to buy an excellent 100% original example. Are you looking for a 1969 piece ? Where are you located ? Best

Located in Denver, CO USA. Currently enjoying a blizzard! So, no watch searching today... 🤬
 
buddman
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Ive owned just over 2 dozen 806s and the one you show is perfectly correct, except the sweep hand needs an arrowhead. Note though that the previous "all black" versions did not have an arrow head, but I don't think yours is correct for that either as the tail shape looks wrong.
 
jrhave2
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buddman buddman
Ive owned just over 2 dozen 806s and the one you show is perfectly correct, except the sweep hand needs an arrowhead. Note though that the previous "all black" versions did not have an arrow head, but I don't think yours is correct for that either as the tail shape looks wrong.

Thanks! Any reference you like better than the 806? Just curious.
 
buddman
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806 is the classic Navitimer, and purist will (successfully) argue that if it isn't an 806, it isn't a Navitimer. You choice on 806 is between pre 1963 where the dial was all black (and Brietling announced a reissue of today) or the post 1963 which are reverse panda dials. As you move from 1963 to 1973, the white subdials get larger, and generally that divides some collectors as to which they prefer more - smaller or larger subdials. I was born in 67 so Im a small sundial guy 😀. The ref is still 806 though. As per the Sinn, O&W, etc, these are knock-offs. Its always better to buy the original IMO.
 
sxl2004
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buddman buddman
As per the Sinn, O&W, etc, these are knock-offs. Its always better to buy the original IMO.

I beg to differ. Sinn has the rights to the Navitimer and nicely developed it further.
Room for both.
 
Foo2rama
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@buddman technically the Navitimer 01 is the knock off from a legal perspective as Brietling sold the rights and sued for them back and only for the name. Hence why the Brietling 01’s have dials that differ from the 806.

I agree the 806 is beautiful and the most desirable, and I’ll own one when I find the right one for me. But calling those knocks offs is simply not true.
 
buddman
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
@buddman technically the Navitimer 01 is the knock off from a legal perspective as Brietling sold the rights and sued for them back and only for the name. Hence why the Brietling 01’s have dials that differ from the 806..

Never heard that. My understanding is that Willy Breitling sold the company to Schneider ( which leads to all those annoying eBay sellers saying that Sicura watches are made by Breitling) in April 1979, and that included the brand names Breitling and Navitimer. Sinn and O&Y bought up excess stock of cases, hands etc and subsequently sold near identical copies of Navitimers ( and had rights to the design), but called them Navigstor, Selectron, etc. This is all quite thoroughly documented. Given that Sinn and O&W begsn their versions using actual Breitling watch parts, it not a great leap to say they are virtually copies.
 
Foo2rama
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buddman buddman
Never heard that. My understanding is that Willy Breitling sold the company to Schneider ( which leads to all those annoying eBay sellers saying that Sicura watches are made by Breitling) in April 1979, and that included the brand names Breitling and Navitimer. Sinn and O&Y bought up excess stock of cases, hands etc and subsequently sold near identical copies of Navitimers ( and had rights to the design), but called them Navigstor, Selectron, etc. This is all quite thoroughly documented. Given that Sinn and O&W begsn their versions using actual Breitling watch parts, it not a great leap to say they are virtually copies.

Everything I’ve read stated they sold the rights to the watch, all parts and tooling. Then attempted to sue for the rights back and lost, just having rights to the name.

Most people outside new owners on Brietling forums tend to agree the chronotime and Sinn pieces are the heir to the 806. The currently Brietling does not own the rights, nor is related to the pre 1978 company in anyway other then a continuation of the name when Schneider purchased the name in1979.

So the question is do they deserve the Navitimer name? No, are they copies? No. Is the current non slide rule non chrono Navitimer a Navitimer? Is the 01? In name yes at least the 01, is the 01 a direct descendant to the 806? Not in my opinion.
 
buddman
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
Everything I’ve read stated they .... attempted to sue for the rights back and lost, just having rights to the name.

Any Source for this? Genuinely interested.

Foo2rama Foo2rama
Most people outside new owners on Brietling forums tend to agree the chronotime and Sinn pieces are the heir to the 806.

Im one of those "people outside the new owners" and I don't believe that and don't know of any other vintage B people that think that either

Foo2rama Foo2rama
The currently Brietling does not own the rights

So you think that the CVC PE bought Breitling 2 years ago for 1.6 billion euros, and Breitling doesn't own the rights to the Navitimer?
 
Foo2rama
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@buddman

They own the rights to the name. Not the dial And case design.
 
buddman
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It would be really valuable if you could give some actual reference/document/sources for the things you are stating as facts. Any source for this "case and design" comment?
 
sxl2004
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buddman buddman
It would be really valuable if you could give some actual reference/document/sources for the things you are stating as facts. Any source for this "case and design" comment?

Just google.
 
Foo2rama
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buddman buddman
It would be really valuable if you could give some actual reference/document/sources for the things you are stating as facts. Any source for this "case and design" comment?

Of the multiple sources that are quickly googled...

Sinn 903 vs Breitling Navitimer vs O&W Aviation
The Breitling firm invented the Navitimer in the early 1950’s for the AOPA (Aircraft Owner and Pilot Associatoion) and release it to the public a little later. First with all black dial and in the 1960’s with panda dial. Unfortunatly in 1979 Breitling was forced to close production and liquidated inventory and rights. Mr. Helmut Sinn, founder of Sinn Watches (1961) bought the rights to use the dial layout of Breitling’s 806 and 809 Navitimer watches, as well as acquiring the tools to produce them and the Lemania 1883 hand wound movements used within these watches. The Company of Ollech & Wash ( read more about the history of this company here) was able to acquire a lot of unfinished products that only needed a new name printed on the dial)! The watches were sold under the Aviation label” and are actually 1979’s Navitimers. This was never a problem since it was limited stock under a different name.

But since Mr. Sinn liked to upgrade his watches and had long term plans. The new Company of Breitling Montres SA (since 1986) wanted to discuss the rights to the 903/Navitimer Model. They descissin was made that both companies could build the timepiece but only Breitling could use the Navitimer model name. This didn’t stop Sinn developing and producing a “better Breitling” ie a navigation chrono to Sinn standards. This explains the resemblance of Sinn’s timepiece with the Navitimer. Thus the 903 Classic is not an illegal copy of Breitling and in fact Sinn still owns the rights to produce these watches today. Until 2000 they used the Lemania 1873 handwind caliber, after that different caliber were used among which the Valjoux 7740 and 7750.

Is the closest to your narrative. Multiple others state lawsuit in the 80’s.
 
Foo2rama
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buddman buddman
https://klocksnack.se/threads/klockspaning-är-tillbaka-breitling-navitimer-01.42718/

-The often repeated claim that Sinn and O&W "bought rights" and a "licence" seems to be such a myth. They never did, just acquired stock lots and continued assembling the parts under their own brands, as only the branding Breitling and Navitimer were protected. My source: Albert Wajs, owner of O&W, in a personal conversation, eye to eye, with a witness.-
Then why did Brietling at best have to ask permission at worst sue Sinn? There is also no question O&W just got the parts and tooling and no rights.
 
corn18
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Anyone have a nice 1966 806 they want to sell me? Would love to add one to my collection.
 
buddman
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
Then why did Brietling at best have to ask permission at worst sue Sinn? There is also no question O&W just got the parts and tooling and no rights.

I don't know that they did. People write stuff all the time on forums, blogs etc, and then it gets cut and pasted and quite immediately becomes fact. These are events that happened decades ago and unfortunately the documentation isn't always there, watch company records weren't always kept, and a void is left for people to fill in what they either want to hear or what they believe. However, if there was a formal lawsuit in the 1980s in Switzerland or the US, there would be a clear document trail for it.
Edited:
 
buddman
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corn18 corn18
Anyone have a nice 1966 806 they want to sell me? Would love to add one to my collection.
They are not hard to find, but they are becoming hard to find in very good condition. Dial and lume condition is obviously important to collectors, and many Navi's suffered from moisture damage due to the design of the bezel and case interface. Poor care resulted in greenish or stained slide rules, corroded dials, and blackened lume. For the reverse panda dial, you would expect to pay $3000 for a Navi in poor condition on eBay/auction (3 out of 5) $3500-$4500 for better condition (4 our of 5) and $4000 - $7000 for great 5 out of 5 condition, with the top range from a dealer. There are subtle variations in the reference over time and I would take care on eBay as many/most have incorrect hands (and that problem is most common in the subdials).

You might be interested to see the new "all-black" Navitimer that Breitling is launching at Baselworld, which is a faithful recreation on the 1959 Navi but with a more modern internal construction. If you're after vintage, you can message me as I have them from time to time.
 
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