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Is this Omega Genève from 1973 is fake??

Rodnor
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Hello to all Omega vintage watch lovers 😉

I’m a watch collector and I recently decided to get my first vintage watch. I recently found « the one » with this Omega Genève from 1973. I documented myself a lot to avoid to be scammed, but I still have some doubts on this watch that appears to be too good to be true.

Here are the characteristics and info collected from the vendor:
- Found on chrono24.com from a Swedish vendor well rated (4,9/5 with buyers 221 reviews)
- Price: 19 995 Swedish crowns (~ 1920 USD)
- Manufacturer: Omega
- Model: Genève Automatic
- Caliber: 1012
- Movement designation number: 37846147
- Reference number: 1669.163
- Winding: Automatic
- Time deviation: +0s/day
- Amplitude: 289
- Frequence 28800
- Glass: New glass in perfect condition, not Omega original.
- Crown: New crown in perfect condition, Omega original
- Diameter excluding crown: 34,5 mm
- Jewels: 23
- Manufacturing year: 1973
- Strap: Black leather, not Omega original
- Buckle: Gold on steel
- Dial: Silver-colored in perfect condition
- Hands: Original hands in perfect condition
- Case: 18K yellow gold, perfect condition
- Height: 10 mm
- Box: Brand new red Omega box
- Service: Full serviced 2023-07

A few things are disturbing me:
- overall aspect seems too « new » for a 50 years old watch with original pieces (except the glass and the band according to the vendor)
- the back case is oddly engraved
- the reference number engraved is 1669163 and it should be 1660163 for this type of watch
- no « 1012 » engraving on the movement nor other engravings on the bridges
- some bridges appears to be in a different color from one photo to another
- the 12 o’clock indice seems too thin
- no « T Swiss Made T » on the dial
- not sure the hands are good for this kind of watch
- Omega logo on the dial feels strange: painted and very thin. I expected it to be applied and golden

Is anyone of you would be able to tell me once for good if it’s a real one or a fake, please ?

Thanks a lot to those who will take the time to answer my humble request 😬

IMG_2071.jpeg IMG_2061.jpeg IMG_2062.jpeg IMG_2073.jpeg IMG_2075.jpeg IMG_2072.jpeg IMG_2076.jpeg
 
Dan S
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I'm not seeing anything wrong at first glance, but it's quite expensive for what it is.
 
Perrier
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Exceptional condition but you paid a lot for it.

But if you love it, and will get many years out of it, including passing it on to a child... then the extra money you paid is insignificant.
 
Rodnor
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Thanks for your quick feedbacks! I’m really reassured 😁

I didn’t buy it yet and the price can be negotiated according to vendor. How much would you recommend I offer for it?
 
Dan S
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To do a valuation, I would look for comparable sales of 1970s 18k Geneve models. Not asking prices, actual sales, e.g. in auctions. Gold is expensive at the moment, and the watch is in good condition, so I don't think the seller will let it go cheap, since his asking price is starting quite high.

Another way to look at it would be to consider what you might rather buy for $2k; there are other options. Keep in mind that the Geneve collection was more of an entry point compared to Constellation/DeVille/Seamaster collections, and also that Omega watches from the 1970s are generally less desirable than similar models from the 60s or 50s.
Edited:
 
Rodnor
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Dan S Dan S
To do a valuation, I would look for comparable sales of 1970s 18k Geneve models. Not asking prices, actual sales, e.g. in auctions. Gold is expensive at the moment, and the watch is in good condition, so I don't think the seller will let it go cheap, since his asking price is starting quite high.

Another way to look at it would be to consider what you might rather buy for $2k; there are other options. Keep in mind that the Geneve collection was more of an entry point compared to Constellation/DeVille/Seamaster collections, and also that Omega watches from the 1970s are generally less desirable than similar models from the 60s or 50s.

You’re right, thanks a lot for this wise advice! What could you have in mind for a 2k$ gold vintage watch?
 
Davidt
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Also, to second what Dan says, the later Geneve line was very much an entry level piece.
To gain an idea of value you could also look at late 60’s-70’s Solid gold Seamasters (e.g. DeVilles) as they will be worth slightly more. If I wanted a gold vintage Omega, that’s where I’d be looking. Also, if I was to pay a premium, I’d expect a solid gold Omega buckle, not plated.
 
Davidt
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Such as this that recently sold on eBay. Obviously there’s a spread between a no reserve auction and a dealer and an unserviced and serviced watch but out of these two, I know which I’d buy.

Also, when a dealer says ‘serviced’, ask if they have proof to ensure it been done properly by a qualified watchmaker and not a cursory glance and dunk in some oil.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/rec...-not-for-inquiries.1790/page-396#post-2209081

72170771-3D68-46F5-988F-DB09A63C5872.png
Edited:
 
Rodnor
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This is a very good advice too, thank you very much David !

So, I keep this Genève in mind while I look for a DeVille / Seamaster then. Looks like I’ll have to post soon new things to gather your feedbacks once again 😗
 
Mark020
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Rodnor Rodnor
the back case is oddly engraved
I'm with you on that. No clue whether it is legit but weird indeed
 
Rodnor
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Here is the justification I received from the vendor regarding this specific point:

« I'm not sure why they are not printed with "Swiss Made," but my guess is that the cases were locally produced in the country where they were sold. This might be due to high taxes on gold exports from Switzerland. I know for a fact that this was the case for watches made for the UK and US markets.

The movement, dial, hands everything except the case is from Omega in switzerland. The case was produced by Omega in the country it was sold in and the watch was assembled there also by Omega in that country. This is to avoid expensive tax for exporting gold. Google it and you will find information. »

Indeed, I found information on Google saying cases were built in France, Italy, England or Sweden. So I could trust him in this point.

What do you think?
 
Dan S
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I see no sign that the OP watch was cased locally. It has a normal reference number and no case-maker mark. The Helvetia hallmark appears to be present (twice), although hard to see. Moreover, even locally cased watches are marked SWISS MADE (or something similar) on the dial. I don't understand your concerns about the watch.
Edited:
 
Davidt
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Agree. As several have noted, the watch is genuine, it’s just too expensive and there are nicer, higher end Seamasters available for less money.
 
Rodnor
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Dan S Dan S
I see no sign that the OP watch was cased locally. It has a normal reference number and no case-maker mark. The Helvetia hallmark appears to be present (twice), although hard to see. Moreover, even locally cased watches are marked SWISS MADE (or something similar) on the dial. I don't understand your concerns about the watch.

I doubt because I’m a rookie and I don’t have your experience yet 😀

Also, it’s really difficult to find another watch from this model and this year with exactly the same hands or back case or caliber with the same engravings to compare. The biggest doubt is on the serial number. I don’t understand why it is engraved 1669163 whereas it should be 1660163 for this model. And I don’t see the Helvetia hallmarks nor local casemaker neither…

My rookie brain says it’s either little variations that could occur on old watches at that time or errors from a scammer… But if you all say it’s guenuine, I’ll follow you 😉

Regarding the price, I trust you when you say it’s too high but it’s probably because gold is going through the roof these days. I don’t know the weight of this watch, but perhaps there is 10/15/20 grams of pure gold in it. It may cost idk 800 to 1000 USD only in gold. Furthermore, the condition seems « as new » and I didn’t manage to find DeVille or Seamaster that well preserved.
 
Dan S
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You are talking about the reference number, not the serial number, and 166.0163 is a different reference, with different lugs and case, if you look closely. Observe how the lugs meet the case, for example. The Helvetia hallmarks are present, again, if you look closely.

If you google Omega 166.9163, you will find other examples similar to your watch. Interestingly, they are mainly previous sales from Swedish auction houses.

I have no concern about the watch and the condition is good. Continuing to raise questions is a waste of time, IMO. However, from a collector's perspective, it's not particularly desirable, hence my feeling that the price is high. The case and dial are utilitarian, the movement is not especially well regarded, and it's not from Omega's best era. These are nuances that collectors gradually come to understand. But if you like it and it fits within your budget, don't worry about the price, just buy it. Just be aware that you will take a haircut if you ever decide to sell.
Edited:
 
Rodnor
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Dan S Dan S
You are talking about the reference number, not the serial number, and 166.0163 is a different reference, with different lugs and case, if you look closely. Observe how the lugs meet the case, for example. The Helvetia hallmarks are present, again, if you look closely.

If you google Omega 166.9163, you will find other examples similar to your watch. Interestingly, they are mainly previous sales from Swedish auction houses.

I have no concern about the watch and the condition is good. Continuing to raise questions is a waste of time, IMO. However, from a collector's perspective, it's not particularly desirable, hence my feeling that the price is high. The case and dial are utilitarian, the movement is not especially well regarded, and it's not from Omega's best era. These are nuances that collectors gradually come to understand. But if you like it and it fits within your budget, don't worry about the price, just buy it. Just be aware that you will take a haircut if you ever decide to sell.

Thanks a lot Dan, I really appreciate your advices and for taking the time to help me gain experience in this very wide field of vintage Omega watches 👍
 
Rodnor
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I finally bought the watch today for 1700$ (all shipping fees included and the watch received a service and have a 0s derivation). It’s a little bit high, but I’m happy with this watch.

Thanks all for your advices and your time!
 
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