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Is this 321 movement Speedy worth it (for me)?

Z
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Dear All,

I have been thinking about getting a Speedy for a while and have finally narrowed it down to getting a 145.012 (321 movement) or 145.022 (861 movement).

While the 861 movement is relatively easy to find, I have recently gotten the opportunity to buy the 321 movement as well.

As you can expect the price difference is significant (about 7500 USD), and I would like to ask you if this price difference is reasonable given the details below.

While both are within my reach financially, the 321 is a bit more than I was planning to spend originally, but I think I would be willing to pay the extra given the right watch that I can really see becoming a core piece in what I hope becomes a <5 piece (luxury) collection.

145.012 (321 movement) details:
  • Stating the obvious but by far the rarer choice
  • One of the main draws for me is that this is the first Speedy with the lyre lugs, so looking like a regular 861/1861/3861 movment Speedy to the untrained is kind of cool to me. Tbh, the lyre lug design is my favorite part about the Speedy
  • This piece has what seems to me like an original decimal bezel. To be completely honest, I like the look of the standard tachymeter bezel more but same here, having that extra touch of difference indistinguishable to the untrained eye is nice for me (you can tell me if you think that's ridiculous I don't mind haha)
  • Obviously polished but doesn't seem to be too bad
  • Not sure if it's the original bracelet but seems to be a flat link bracelet (1039) from around the same time period (1960s)
  • Watch seems to be working fine within +-30 seconds accuracy/day
  • Watch dealer is one of the most famous one's in my geography so I think I can trust what they say but even they don't seem to know the full service history. They confirmed that they have not changed any movement parts since they got the watch (again, don't know about before though?). Only part that seems to have been replaced are the (lume of the) hour/minute hands (The tritium was lighting differently compared to the indices)
I think the 145.022 (861 movement) also offers a similar pre-moon vibe but is obviously a mass produced/mass market watch. Again, I'd like to everyone's opinion on what you think is the better but here though.

Will try to post some pictures later if I can.

Thank you so much for your time and help!
 
Dan S
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We can't help you at all without photos. And what are the asking prices? A $7500 difference sounds extreme, especially since the condition of the 145.012 sounds mediocre based on your description (polished and re-lumed).

BTW, the 145.012 was not the first reference with lyre lugs.
 
Z
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Thank you for your reply!

I understand...
Will try to get some photos later but asking price is about 11500 USD for the

Have seen a few 145.012s on Chrono but do you think it's not that hard to find a nice, non-polished piece?

And would you say 5000 USD for a nice 145.022 (861 movement) is reasonable or quite expensive?

Also, I think I meant to say the 145.012 is the last 321 Speedy but I may be wrong on that too haha
 
padders
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Be aware it’s best to assume any decimal bezel is a modern replacement since many (most?) are and I’m guessing you don’t yet have the knowledge to spot the few that aren’t. As above, this is one very expensive 145.012, especially considering the non std bezel and likely relume. That asking price buys you a nice Ed White. If you really prefer the twisted lugs, save your money and get a 145.022-68 or 145.022-69.
 
Z
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padders padders
Be aware it’s best to assume any decimal bezel is a modern replacement since many (most?) are and I’m guessing you don’t yet have the knowledge to spot the few that aren’t. As above, this is one very expensive 145.012, especially considering the non std bezel and likely relume. That asking price buys you a nice Ed White. If you really prefer the twisted lugs, save your money and get a 145.022-68 or 145.022-69.

Really glad I came here...
I did do some research on the bezel but you are probably right.

Can you please give me a rough idea of what you think would be reasonable prices for the 145.012 and 145.022 (68 and 69 - btw may I know what the difference between the two is?)?
Do you feel 5000 USD is high for a 145.022?
 
Z
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It really comes down to what your preferences are and what the condition is of the watches. By the way, what is in my opinion also worth considering is the cost of service and purchasing spare parts for a 861 vs. a 321 movement.
 
Z
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Z zenaj
It really comes down to what your preferences are and what the condition is of the watches. By the way, what is in my opinion also worth considering is the cost of service and purchasing spare parts for a 861 vs. a 321 movement.

Very valid point indeed

Is my understanding correct that the 861 has minimal maintenance costs with most decent watchmakers able to service it?
 
Dan S
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Z zava396
Really glad I came here...
I did do some research on the bezel but you are probably right.

Can you please give me a rough idea of what you think would be reasonable prices for the 145.012 and 145.022 (68 and 69 - btw may I know what the difference between the two is?)?
Do you feel 5000 USD is high for a 145.022?
For a rough idea, check the speedmaster101.com price list. As you will see, the value is highly dependent on condition and originality, so it is impossible to help you without comprehensive photos and information. It's not hard to distinguish original from service bezels.

BTW, 11,500-5000=6,500. Not 7,500.
 
Z
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Dan S Dan S
For a rough idea, check the speedmaster101.com price list. As you will see, the value is highly dependent on condition and originality, so it is impossible to help you without comprehensive photos and information. It's not hard to distinguish original from service bezels.

BTW, 11,500-5000=6,500. Not 7,500.
Thanks for the suggestion - will definitely check out that price list.
 
Donn Chambers
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Unless you have been wanting to collect the 145.012 for years, I would never recommend buying one as your first Speedmaster, especially if you intend to wear it. Most watchmakers will happily service an 861 movement and be able to find parts -- not so with the 321, where parts are hard to find AND expensive.

Unless you have money to burn. And at that price being quoted, I definitely wouldn't buy one.

People on these boards talk about the cal. 321 in almost mythical terms. But for most users, an 861 (or 1861) Speedmaster is just as good and you will never notice any substantial difference -- just spend a lot less money.

My opinion, of course, but spoken as a former owner of a 145.012. But I paid less than $1200 for it when you could still buy them cheap. I actually sold it for a 145.022 because the 145.012 kept having problems and I was tired of sending it back to my watchmaker to fix.
 
EdtheAussie
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11.5k USD sound high for a 145.012 imo.

Anyway..... I have one for sale for that if you have 11.5k USD handy 🙄
 
Teunan87
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Donn Chambers Donn Chambers
Unless you have been wanting to collect the 145.012 for years, I would never recommend buying one as your first Speedmaster, especially if you intend to wear it. Most watchmakers will happily service an 861 movement and be able to find parts -- not so with the 321, where parts are hard to find AND expensive.

Unless you have money to burn. And at that price being quoted, I definitely wouldn't buy one.

People on these boards talk about the cal. 321 in almost mythical terms. But for most users, an 861 (or 1861) Speedmaster is just as good and you will never notice any substantial difference -- just spend a lot less money.

My opinion, of course, but spoken as a former owner of a 145.012. But I paid less than $1200 for it when you could still buy them cheap. I actually sold it for a 145.022 because the 145.012 kept having problems and I was tired of sending it back to my watchmaker to fix.

I also had a 145.012 and sold it for the same reasons more or less. When a big service was needed I sold it and bought a 145.022 with 861 movement. No more worries about the movement/costs.
 
Z
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Thank you so much for the guidance.

As you may have expected, I have decided not to go with the 145.012 and instead look for a good sample of the 145.022.

Just out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on a 3570.50 Tritium dial Speedy?
Was considering that one in the past but now thinking it's too modern for me and that the 1861 movement isn't for me maybe
 
Evitzee
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Z zava396
Thank you so much for the guidance.

As you may have expected, I have decided not to go with the 145.012 and instead look for a good sample of the 145.022.

Just out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on a 3570.50 Tritium dial Speedy?
Was considering that one in the past but now thinking it's too modern for me and that the 1861 movement isn't for me maybe
You need to sit down and really think about what you are trying to do here. It doesn't seem you are focused on what you really want or how to go about it. If the 1861 isn't for you then you don't have too many options......vintage 321, vintage 861, or a new Ed White 321 maybe.
 
Dan S
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145.012, 145.022, 3570.50 ... they're all good watches and it's just a personal choice. You decide. Don't let people talk you into buying the watch that they like, buy the watch that you will enjoy the most.
 
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