First of all, let's agree to disagree. I would not take as a standard "a true original dial is 30 to 40% of the value of a vintage watch!".
Nobody would keep a watch in non working or not wearable condition in display...
The next owner would probably search for immediate replace or repair solutions. That's something i see extremely often !

 

Sure, we can disagree. But you're voicing an opinion that's not shared by most Omega, and vintage watch, collectors in general. Parts are still available for many of the Omega movements from the 60's and even earlier calibers, but not exactly correct NOS dials. Put 2 Constellation pie pans up for auction on eBay - one with a poor dial (refinished or not), the other with a mint original dial, with all other parts' condition being equal - and I guarantee you the mint original dial specimen will outsell the other by AT LEAST 30%.

 

IMO, the value of an original dial on one of these Speedmasters is likely more significant than 30-40%
I say this because I (and am guessing a significant fraction of other collectors) would not even consider buying a 105.003 without an original dial (unless it was priced for parts or they had a spare correct dial). Having the replacement dial considerably narrow the market of potential buyers.

 

I, for one, will not buy one with a replacement dial no matter how cheap it goes for.

 

I'm with Gavin and Dennis here. If a service dial (or hands or bezel) has been applied to the watch then the watch, in its entirety has become ' worth' less than if it was all original. Regardless of whether its been replaced as part of service or its been frankened the effect is the same.

 

The Pie Pan observation may be good, however many of the Connie owners would buy the poor one with the hope they will find a good one and they will restore some day.
Many of the collectors with a bit of imagination would go for that poor one if they can't keep the step with the mint one. And it's enough to see 2 interested in the same time and the price will increase significantly for the poor too.
I personally like to see people decide according to tastes not following a trend, or "inception" of an idea as a standard... "Million minds, million thoughts".
I am also in favor for the vintage and patina dials - when available - but if impossible to find that doesn't mean there are no other choices. And the replace value is not at all cheap or something you could find at the next corner, not to say the study time and the work itself, but this is what it is, and this is why i love restoration.
And this is where we disagree about originality or at least on preferences... If it's not the way one wants, it doesn't mean it's crap or inflated. It's simply not the one for you.
A professional restorer working in preservation and conservation, would always leave his work as visible as possible, so that the new owner to understood or easily spot the difference between the original and the restored part.
I would also look for the best value for money i could find out there and i'm not afraid of any project, but there are pieces so unique or rare out there, that makes the "budget" simply an abstract term...

 

What? Where are you pulling these "facts" from???? That's it, I'm done with this thread because you have no clue about what a true collector wants, and the above comment is total bullshit. The truth is the exact opposite.

 

True, but there are many nicer and original condition examples for sale for similar (and lower) asking price to yours. I guess you are looking for the "imaginative and uninformed" collector to come along.

 

That is not at all bullshit.
I'm not talking about watches specifically. This is exactly what happens when you restore metal, wood, ceramics, etc. and this should apply to vintage watches, or at least when restoring them.
Many here are in the pursuit of vintage parts for their vintage watches, but adding a used part from a different watch, to your used watch, IS IT STILL ORIGINAL ? OR IS IT JUST EASY FOR YOU TO ACCEPT IS "TRULY COLLECTIBLE" ?
We seem to confuse ORIGINAL with OLD.
After a car service did you really store all the replaced parts ? Is your car less original after a repair ? Does this apply to vintage cars ?
How many have done this already ? How many would be willing to admit ?...

This line separates the restorer's work from the original work.
Museums for instance would never accept a "perfect replica" of the missing part, matching perfectly with the rest of the work. That's basic rules in restoration, so no matter how damaged or used it should be preserved and conserved and while it's missing, a new one is made on a similar pattern but it will always remain distinctive.

You're so acid about "what a true collector wants" like there is a definition for that or like i should share your opinion which is wrong. Think about that ?!

 

Are you the eBay seller in OP post?

 

what a strange way to say things...... pompous; selfrighteous? if you restore a 321 speedmaster movement, you use omega parts. as maybe 10 other watchmakers have done before you. you will never know the difference between the 1959 condition and the 2014 condition. you are not a vintage watch restorer and you do not know, what speedmaster collectors want. your comments come across as patronizing, yes. i have a feeling, that your own vintage speedmaster collection will not reflect your theoretical knowledge about vintage speedies. and even that is not tested. feel free to post pictures of your vintage speedmaster watches for our viewing pleasure. surprise me ! kind regards. achim

 

Valid question - but the answer is obvious that he is.

Just another thick headed seller who, despite every single other poster/collector in this thread being against him with the same points, will argue from the roof top that he's right no matter how wrong he is.

Not the first time we've seen it, is it? I'd suggest we all just move along and not waste any more time here. Nobody will ever get through to this guy. The lightbulb over his head must be burned out or gone.

 

Yes i am.

 

We already knew that, but thanks for the confirmation.

Do you realize that an ENTIRE FORUM of collectors are not buying your story? I'll give you the same advice I gave a couple other sellers who tried to pull this "original" lie: have somebody you trust read this thread and give you their honest opinion of what's going on. DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR SCREEN NAME NOR TELL THEM WHAT SIDE OF THE COIN YOU'RE ON. It should be illuminating for you.

 

Well, if it's not how you want, you take your toys and go home... Again, rude and personal comments.
I have provided you some very good restoration advises and you simply don't want to take them into consideration.
All i'm saying is that one Speedmaster can't be more original then the other if it uses the correct parts. It's still original. I offered various examples for that either.

I do not want to comment completely the first part of your message.. as you really don't know me.
But let me express the job of every watchmaker is first of all to preserve what is on the inside as much as on the outside. Private watchmakers will manage to do this better then a big service center today. They will have a better communication with the collector, too.
If you don't have the original parts (ie. dial, bezel) of course you will have to add replacements. This is why such parts are first of all sold by the manufacturer.
New or NOS replacement parts can be found and a big service center will prefer replacing these parts rather then keeping the old that would eventually impede obtaining a good result (keeping time, good amplitude, etc.).
As for the pictures of my Speedmasters, this is not a contest of who's "toy" is more shinier... i never played the game. I only take pictures and describe those i sell.

/F

 

You maybe did not realize, i'm not on any side of the coin. I simply have an opinion, different then yours.
Even though with different results, the good thing is that we speak about the same thing.
You will probably never reflect on what i said until you will experience the "alteration" of your personal opinion in one of the proposed situations.

 

Indeed but once you'll try to build an collection, starting with cal. 19, and trying to source all the possible movements in all sorts of case shapes, you will have to do lots of compromises.
One of the reasons i like Omega, is because Omega offers a variety of movements at very accessible prices and such a pursuit is not necessarily redundant. So Omega would fit the description.
Collecting Pateks things would have to chance so you will immediately have to face the question: 1 $10-20k Patek or a few other for that money.

The last phrase seems like the inflection of a very selective collector with refined tastes hoping only for the best, not bothering to scrap the surface for "raw uncut diamonds". But the most refined ones are almost impossible to find for sale, not that they don't exist but already have an owner with at least of expectations.
I personally find more pleasure in searching and finding such "raw diamonds"... At least that's my way.

 

Dear Mr RF

All the points you make about conservation and restoration can be perfectly valid in other areas of the heritage industry. I spent my professional life in the conservation of historic sites and buildings, and in that sphere we are still having this debate about whether restoration works should be undertaken in the first place, and if so, should they be readily detectable or be made to match precisely and then be fully documented. However, I think that you are attempting to apply those principles to a very different sphere of activity - the collectors of certain portable antiquities (wristlet watches, in this case) who prize originality above all else. Originality, and its specific meaning in this context, lie at the nub of the argument.

The crucial quote from you is this - "All i'm saying is that one Speedmaster can't be more original then the other if it uses the correct parts. It still original. I offered various examples for that either."

This is simply untrue. It is patently obvious that one Speedmaster can indeed be more original than another. To be truly original, as everyone here would understand the meaning of the word, it must have every part the same as was fitted at the factory when first built. Every single part that has been replaced since then, diminishes its originality. That is all that this entire thread is about.