How much undisclosed refinishing goes on?

http://www.nbtimes.co/works/submariner/

I am using this vintage watch online shop as an example. They specialize in vintage Rolex pieces. If we have a look at some of their watches we see the same strong orange patina on many different watches. Cases have nice thick lugs. The seller claims the watches are untouched and original. They look like NOS. I'm not trying to pick on this particular seller but how much refinishing (painted or artificial patina, refinished dials, laser welded cases) goes on and does this worry you?

You are right, he is based in Hong Kong.

Does that mean they're not touched up, or that they are? Or neither? Both?

Try to find 1 really perfect 70's sub on ebay, chrono24 and watch forums. It's very hard to find just 1 with a lot of searching. Then take a look at this site and find several all from the same seller.

Given the differences in (a) thickness of lume, (b) color of lume, (c) condition of case bevels (sharp and defined vs. non-existent, (d) case dings (present vs. absent), I don't see any evidence at all for refinishing. The guy specializes in patina Rolexes, of which you can find 100 on eBay at any particular time.

This seller has been looked upon suspiciously by a number of collectors for the same reasons you mention.

You can't hide refinishing...it quite easy to tell the difference between a 50 year old unpolished watch and a refinished watch if you know what to look for:
1st image- unpolished c1972 5512
2nd image- refinished case

It's getting harder and harder to tell. So, how about this. A couple of Rolex Comex 1665, one is real and sold for a small fortune and one is a $4,500 fake with a genuine rolex movement. Pretty close

We just don't know, restoration techniques are getting so good that it's getting harder to tell. I wouldn't mind having a mint watch that had been restored but i'd prefer that it was disclosed. But maybe his watches are untouched. Here is a before and after shot of a restored dial. This work was done by classicwatchrepair, based in Hong Kong.

http://classicwatchrepair.com/page3.html

I came extremely close to purchasing one of his watches and backed-out at the last minute. It just all seemed too good to be true. Days later, this thread started-up:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=397937&highlight=when+patina+is+too+good

A couple hundred posts later, there still wasn't any clear proof of wrongdoing, but no real plausible explanation either. Spacefruit's explanation is the clearest I've read. Still have to take it on faith though.

I decided to buy a similar piece from a different seller that had many more imperfections. Quite a few dings in the case, but it seems to be unpolished. Good tritium patina, but if you look closely the shade is a little uneven. Hands match, but there's some corrosion. For me, it had all of the things I wanted, but still showed some honest wear for a 30+ year old watch. It was the right choice for me and I sleep easier because of it. I wouldn't judge others for having different taste and going after the time capsules he shows though.

I found this interesting post on another forum:

"Most 'in the know' Big Time Dealers will know exactly what is going on behind the scenes but no one will say a word unless one BTD screws over another BTD and then they only tell other BTDs about it.
Buyers/outsiders/suckers are on their own...always have been in this game.

I knew a few BTDs 20+ years ago when Daytonas, Milgauss, and 1655 were hot. They would do anything to jack up prices even go so far as taking 5 or 6 watches to make one super nice example, then put the rest of them back together in decending order of quality. Then they would sell the 'leftovers' starting with the worst one while the 'cream of the cream' (put together out of the best parts) was always for sale at a very high price making the leftovers look like bargains. Always sell the leftovers starting with the worst one or you might be stuck with it after the better examples are sold.

"Do you have any Daytonas for sale?"

"Yes, I have two...one is pristine at $25,000 and one is a bit rougher at $19,000."

"Do you have any more?"

"No, just the two."

"I can not afford the one for $25,000 but I will give $17,500 for the other one."

"Sold!"

The next day he has the pristine watch plus the second worst one for sale.

Since then, most of the names have changed but the basics have not.

It's funny (to me) that a watch with an extensively laser welded case, artificially aged dial, hands, insert etc (all this being their secret) does not bother these guys at all but a Phong etc cased watch (with full disclosure) drives them crazy...unless they have one for sale with no disclosure unless you spot the case"