Hello!
My grandfather left me an Omega watch that he bought in Europe in the 40s of the last century. Now I have this watch and I am interested to know its history. But I could not find any analogs of this watch either in appearance or in mechanism, and even there are doubts whether the watch is a fake.


But the mechanism is similar to the caliber 1158, 1187, 1190, 1213 A. Schild. (I don't have enough knowledge to distinguish them). I found out that such mechanisms called "ebauche from Schild" were supplied to other brands, and found photos of Rolex Tudor and Brevet Henco watches on European antique dealers ' websites and forums.

But I couldn't find information about the Omega watch series like mine. I would like to know the history of this watch, as it is part of my grandfather's history.I hope for the help of forum experts.

 

If the one of the movements shown in your post is from the “Omega” watch pictured in your post, there is indeed something strange. One movement seems to be marked “Tudor”, and the other appears to be marked “Omega”. Neither Tudor nor Omega ever used these A SCHILD movements. It looks very suspiciously as though there has been some inventive Engraving, mixing, and matching going on. It would have been very helpful if you had provided much better photos in your request for assistance. But I smell a fake or two.

 

The Omega is a fake, Omega never used AS calibers.

Tudor did use A Schild ebauches (also Fabrique d’Horologerie de Fontainmelon ( F.H.F) ) in their early models, although usually finished to a higher quality than the standard ebauche.

 

They did use FHF calibers, but never the A Schild 1187 1194 models. That “Tudor” marked movement is a fake. The only centre second FHF 150 movement (See image) used were the indirect sweep seconds variety which Tudor called by the caliber # 59.

 

Also used the awful FHF / Tudor 390 .

 

might be a bit harsh to call fake... it might be a case of creative repair, to keep it working with what was at hand, and no intend to deceive.

i'm sure they have stories to tell.

 

Can't see one single component from omega......case lugs never from omega. Outside engraved back = no. Movement = no. Dial ? Maybe repainted and dial feet cut? Looks like a creative, a lot of time on their hands creation from the Ukraine. Omega carried a lot of prestige in the UdSSR. Kind regards. Achim

 

I can't see ANY Omega DNA in that watch.

 

Creative repair. I like that phrase. It reminds me of some of my work around the house

 

I believe you mean that. What would your view be had you bought such a watch, believing it was actually an Omega. I can’t believe you would express that opinion!

 

Thank you for your answers!

I took information about Tudor watches from this site, which also describes the history of this watch with the AS1187 movement and mentions the thirty-year collaboration between A. Schild and Rolex:
http://www.vintage-watches-collection.com/watch/rolex-watch/rolex-tudor-with-honeycomb-dial-1949/

According to the history of my grandfather, I can say that he has never been to Ukraine. My grandfather served in the GRU of the General Staff of the USSR, at the beginning of WW2 he was a legal employee of the naval attache at the Soviet Embassy in Italy. At the beginning of the war between Germany and the USSR, my grandfather was in Europe and Tunisia. At the end of WW2, my grandfather was part of a group of officers accompanying General Susloparov, the Soviet representative at the signing of the German surrender in Reims.

After the service, my grandfather had two watches, a 1941 Rolex Brevet Oyster, which is checked for markings, and an Omega, which is in front of you. If you believe the number on the cover, then Omega - 1944, which coincides with the chronology of events in the life of my grandfather.
This raises the question of the number on the Omega cover: if this is a fake, why show it so clearly? Perhaps, since the AS caliber was produced without a number - the number was put on the cover by the manufacturer?

An interesting point: one of these watches, a Rolex or Omega, was present with my grandfather in Reims and "saw" Eisenhower, Montgomery and Jodl. Perhaps it was Omega, since it is not quite correct for a Junior officer to wear a Rolex under big bosses.

I fully admit that my copy of Omega may be a fake, but there are simple questions, why immediately issue a fake number on the cover? And why insert a Swiss AS mechanism into a fake, if you can find a cheaper option for a fake? The inscription "swiss" on the mechanism can be applied in the same way as "Omega".
There is also such a factor as WW2, and related problems. It can be assumed that under these conditions, Omega could cooperate with AS for a small series of watches. And, for example, due to the absence of a number on the AS mechanism, put the number on the cover. In 1940, Omega became the main supplier of watches to the British army, and allowed itself to deviate from previously accepted standards.

In the process of searching for information, I got the impression that the British branch of Omega had a lot of independence in the 20-40 years of the last century, and departed from the General standards of Omega. I will write the next post about this.

 

Maks , good luck with your research about your family heirloom. You did ask about an omega watch and the pictures show, that it is not an Omega. Never was. Never will be. No matter how much you research. AS mvmt. were never used by Omega . They are a manufacture, meaning they make their own movements. They bought other movement companies, but never AS. So , here it ends. And Omega in the 40's did not depart from Omega's general standards. Everything was done in Switzerland and only shipped to the Omega agent of the time. So, research about that will not be credible. Whatever your watch is, cherish it for the family history.
Your grandfather had an astonishing life. Surprising, that he survived Stalin's paranoia. My father might have met your grandfather, who knows.... He was one of the medical doctors for General Fieldmarshal Rommel in Africa . Kind regards. Achim

 

Regarding that website (which I personally regard with extreme caution).

Whenever I see verbose, embellished or overly lengthy descriptions of a watch I immediately become suspicious.
If a watch is genuine and photographs display that fact, there is no need to write a five hundred word essay in an effort to convince a buyer that the watch they are viewing is correct.

It often reminds me of the "Big Lie": "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

If you could provide another reliable source (Tudor or Rolex collector website, validated reference etc) describing such a watch I would be very surprised.

 

Achim, thank you for your response!

Maybe they met... Sometimes fate has amazing coincidences. Unfortunately, I am not able to accurately investigate the history of my grandfather: for army officers, you can now get all the available information in the military archive, but for intelligence information is secret.

About the British representation and standards, I wanted to say about the order of gold cases for Omega in the 20s from the London company Dennison, after the ban in 1916 from the British government on the import of gold products. And also about ordering "civilian" cases after the war for unused Omega army watches. And about marking "A. M. "and" W. W. W. " according to the British military standard.

Version of Britain have arisen in connection with the London clock company "Accurist" mechanism 15j AS 1190, in which I saw some overlap in the elements of the dial, and made the erroneous assumption that as a result of necessary hours for the army of Britain and obstacles of a naval blockade, perhaps some time there was cooperation.


But today I found a watch from the 40s with a similar dial, this is a "DOXA" watch.



In total, we get in my watch: A. Schild movement, DOXA dial, unknown hands and case.
(However, I do not understand: selling watches like Omega, having the cost of Swiss movement and dial, case selection, hands and work - is this a profitable business?)
there is Still a question: my watch is 10.5", and DOXA is 11.5". Is it possible to choose such a case to combine the watch with the mechanism?
And one more question, what is the difference between the "OMEGA" and "OMEGA WATCH Co" labels?

 

I'm not a Tudor expert, I'm just quoting the information I found. Here are more links, but I do not know if they will be authoritative?
https://www.blackbough.co.uk/product/tudor-rolex-vintage-gold-wristwatch-hallmarked-1956-wwtrgmw/
https://watchguy.co.uk/service-tudor-as1187/
https://www.poshtime.com/497.036/Tudor-Rolex-17J-c.1940s.php

 

Engraving a movement is not a creative repair.

AS can be decent movements. In fact I own one that is also shared with the Tudor advisor a main stream piece available world wide. Mine is in a Hamilton sub brand from the early 70’s called Vantage.

 

I admire your research work.

On the question of the dial. Like A Schild, who provided bare movements (ebauches) to many many watch companies, there were also dial manufacturers who provided dials to many companies. Some were supplied to a customer specification, so they were "unique" to each company.
Others were provided as generic dials and sent to watch companies, jewellers and watchmakers, sometimes marked with the relevant "brand" and sometimes just blank and the watch company/jeweller or watchmaker would stamp the dial.

If you compare your "Omega" to the Doxa, you can see that both movements are held in large movement rings, these may have been sized to account for variations for the caliber used.

The single word normally appeared on the dial, and the full "Omega Watch Co" on the inside of the caseback and on one of the bridges of the movement. However, there are variations to this rule.

A watch "manufacturer" could source ebauches/cases/dials and hands from various reputable suppliers, and many did and sold them honestly.

But there were some who could double, or even triple the price of "their"watch if it was a known "prestige" brand (as Omega and Rolex were in the 1940s), so out would come the engravers and stamps.

I made a small post about identification of vintage Omegas which may be of interest to you.

Cheers
Jim

 

yes, you are correct, those are straight up fraud. i meant more along the lines of a watchmaker in a post war country that was hard up for parts cobbling together what he had to keep a watch running... ala 50's cars in cuba.

 

Thank you all, your criticism helped me find the answer.