Help please ID Omega ou Helvetia

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Helvomeg

·Mar 4, 2025

Hello everyone.
It was inherited. Can you please help me with further identification of this watch?
My questions are:
1) So I'm really lost here. Is this watch the real Helvetia ou more likely the earlest Omega?
The Helvetia mark starts with numbering with 2 xxx xxx.
The case serial number of my timepiece starts with 1xxx xxx. I'm not sure, if this means that it was made at 1897?
2) And is the movement an Omega movement? Did Omega ever not sign pocketwatch movements and not engrave serial numbers? What the movement do I have here? I have not seen the same movement anywhere on the internet.
3) It is cased in silver 800. And it bears the Au 815 engraved symbol on the cover(under Helvetia). That means gold. Which part is in the gold?
I would like to know more about it. Here I am enclosing photos.
Thanks everyone

 

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JimInOz

·Mar 4, 2025·Melbourne Australia

Helvetia was a "sister brand" of Omega at the time. There were a number of others produced by the Brandts such as Patria, Celtic, Regina etc.
These were mostly cheaper versions, some intended for export. The actual "Omega" caliber 19''' was introduced in 1894 but it wasn't until about 1904 that the Brandt brothers named the company "Omega".

I don't recognise the movement as being an Omega design, but at that time many things were going on in the Swiss watch industry.
As you noted, the case is silver with German import marks, I can't see the Au mark you mentioned.

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 4, 2025

Thank you, for your prompt reply. It gives me more insight as to what direction I should look in next. The gold mark follows on the cover with the Helvetia inscription at the bottom just after the number 15 . Like 15 Au 815.

 

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JimInOz

·Mar 4, 2025·Melbourne Australia

H Helvomeg

Thank you, for your prompt reply. It gives me more insight as to what direction I should look in next. The gold mark follows on the cover with the Helvetia inscription at the bottom just after the number 15 . Like 15 Au 815.

That's actually "15 Rubis" or 15 Jewels.

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 4, 2025

Thanks a lot, I got it. What about the serial number. Assuming that.
About Helvetia serial numbers. At first we need to look at the serial numbering of Helvetia’s sister company; Louis Brandt & Frere (later to become the Omega Watch Company).

By 1895 when the brothers Louis Paul and César Brandt founded the company that was to become Helvetia; the Société d’Horlogerie La Générale or the General Watch Company, the serial numbering system that they had been using for their Louis Brandt & Frere watches (Omega and other brand names) had reached over the 1 million figure.

When deciding on how to number the watches of the new company it seems they decided to start at 2 million in order to keep the serial number ranges of the two companies separate but also to imply a continuation between them.


If this watch is a Helvetia, it would be logical to find a serial number starting with 2. But in my case, it starts with 1. According to the Omega database, it also starts with 1. Can I assume that this is an early Omega watch with the name Helvetia?

 

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JimInOz

·Mar 4, 2025·Melbourne Australia

H Helvomeg

Can I assume that this is an early Omega watch with the name Helvetia?

Probably not, it's certainly a Helvetia case, but the movement design has no early Omega/Helvetia DNA.
Even at that stage, watchmakers realised that full bridge designs were a PITA to build and service so many watchmakers went to multiple bridges and cocks for ease of assembly and servicing.

I suspect that your watch houses a re-cased movement, the hands are not the style you need for a hunter/savonnette case.
There were many little watchmaker workshops in Switzerland at the time, a lot of them were simply ebauche makers who sold to jewelers who would case the movements with dials marked with their name.

Here's an example of your movement, although a Lépine, not a hunter.

As you can see, there is no association with the Omega empire.

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 4, 2025

Thank you very much for such a detailed and convincing explanation and for your professionalism. And all the best to you.

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 4, 2025

Can I ask you one more question about the purpose of these red highlighted parts. I'm sorry, I'm not an expert and I can't define them correctly

 

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JimInOz

·Mar 4, 2025·Melbourne Australia

The one closest to the crown is a latch or snib, used to hold the case cover closed. It's pushed down by the crown so that the case cover can be opened.

The second one looks like a setting lever. Pulling it outward places the keyless works components into engagement so the time can be set.
Pushing it back in disengages the setting parts and connects the winding parts so that the watch can be wound by turning the crown.

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 5, 2025

Lovely. I want to thank you again for your time and attention. I'll have them cleaned and polished by a watchmaker. They'll add to our family's collection of treasures.

 

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DaveK

·Mar 5, 2025·Yoda of Yodelers

JimInOz

Helvetia was a "sister brand" of Omega at the time.

I don’t think I knew this. Thx Jim.

 

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Porteroso

·Mar 5, 2025

H Helvomeg

Lovely. I want to thank you again for your time and attention. I'll have them cleaned and polished by a watchmaker. They'll add to our family's collection of treasures.

It's fun to see hands like that. Thank you for posting!

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 5, 2025

Thank you for your kind words. I like them very much too.

 

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DaveK

·Mar 5, 2025·Yoda of Yodelers

H Helvomeg

…What about the serial number…

Your watchmaker will likely find the serial number on the back side of the movement, under the dial where it was often put for some useful and helpful reason.

 

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size11s

·Mar 5, 2025

This is an excellent reference site and covers the Omega/Helvetia relationship, I believe the author, Carl, is a member here. https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/history

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 5, 2025

DaveK

Your watchmaker will likely find the serial number on the back side of the movement, under the dial where it was often put for some useful and helpful reason.

DaveK, thank you for your valuable advice. That's exactly what I gonna to do. I know there will be probably a number that help to finally understand what the mechanism is and generally answer a lot of questions. But I still don't get an answer to the main question: if the Helvetia Hunt case number, like mine 1396644, is less than the officially recognised Helvetia manufacturer's number starting with 2. That means to me that it is not Helvetia but something else. I think that the watch was produced during this transitional period when the two sister companies were formed. And this watch, even if it had a movement of an unknown manufacturer, was checked and registered by a special oficial body, which is indicated by the presence of the Gurzelen mark. In my endeavours to put these designations together, I found information that interpreted the presence of Helvetia and Gurzelen together as Omega. This is where my main doubt lies.

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 5, 2025

size11s

This is an excellent reference site and covers the Omega/Helvetia relationship, I believe the author, Carl, is a member here. https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/history

I will use this link exactly. Thank you Very much

 

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Vitezi

·Mar 5, 2025

Calling @Helvetia History 😁

 

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Helvomeg

·Mar 5, 2025

Vitezi

Calling @Helvetia History 😁

Yes, this is what I am gonna doing in the near future. Thank you.

 

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Helvetia History

·Mar 12, 2025

Hello all. Sorry for the delay in replying. I've also got your email which I'll reply to as soon as I get a minute.

This movement is the first basic lever movement the General Watch Co used when they were first formed by the Brandt brothers in 1895. You are correct that the serial number seems too early for the General Watch Co. The first movements that the General Watch Co made were those previously manufactured by Louis Brandt and Frere (Omega) so I would hazard a guess that this watch was made by Louis Brandt and Frere immediately before the General Watch Co was formed in 1895. I think the serial number is about right for Louis Brandt and Frere at that time.

This one is more usual. Serial number from 1897, "La Generale, Successor to Louis Brandt & Frere" text on dial, Helvetia brand mark inside the case.

I have one with Helvetia on the dial and another, Hunter cased, marked The General Lever.

So I think your watch is of the type first made by the General Watch Co but probably actually manufactured by Louis Brandt and Frere.

I need to add a section on these early GW Co pocket watches to my site soon.

Thanks. Carl.