For the Hi-Fi enthusiasts among us...

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

TrboDieselPwrd
That sounds interesting, I'll have to look into the PS upgrade. Mine has the tonearm rewired with an analog/ground outputs done by KAB. Also put a higher mass headshell with a HOMC Denon DL160. It did improve things and it fits my system in terms of being non-fussy and fun, if not a little sterile. Toyed with the idea of putting a SME 3009 on there but decided to stick with the Technics arm and make light mods (maybe a fluid damper later on). I'm guessing isolation or decoupling the deck will probably help too.

https://www.isonoe.com/products2/audio-isolation-system/

I had these footers on my 1200 and eventually migrated them over to a Denon deck (both take an M6 thread) which is in my parents system. My step father had polio so has the tremor- I gave him two semi-auto Denons which makes his life easier for listening to his record collection.

TrboDieselPwrd · Dec 4, 2022

JwRosenthal
https://www.isonoe.com/products2/audio-isolation-system/

I had these footers on my 1200 and eventually migrated them over to a Denon deck (both take an M6 thread) which is in my parents system. My step father had polio so has the tremor- I gave him two semi-auto Denons which makes his life easier for listening to his record collection.

Thanks James, yeah I remember looking at these awhile back and they look sweet. I was going to start cheap to mess around and see if I could hear any difference at all with the Bright Star feet. I was also thinking about a wall mount, but just enjoying the music for now.

Bright Star IsoNode Feet Set of 4 | Audio Advisor

Those Denons are nice decks...had one with a DL103 on it and it sounded great.

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

Also another thing to keep in mind is arm/cart compliance. Moving up to a 3009 (depending on which model, there were about 4-5 all with difference mass) may get you a better bearing (which is debatable about knife edge bearings), but if it’s not matched properly for the compliance of the cartridge it won’t sound right. I’ve seen some very $$$ cartridges matches to some very $$$$ arms that were totally wrong for each other regarding compliance/mass and they sound awful. I have had owners of high end tables bemoan “but they are both very expensive, it should sound great! I read online reviews saying they were a great match”. Inversely I have heard relatively cheap cartridges sound outstanding on relatively cheap turntables/arms - all in the compliance- math and physics don’t don’t care how much it cost.

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

TrboDieselPwrd
Thanks James, yeah I remember looking at these awhile back and they look sweet. I was going to start cheap to mess around and see if I could hear any difference at all with the Bright Star feet. I was also thinking about a wall mount, but just enjoying the music for now.

Bright Star IsoNode Feet Set of 4 | Audio Advisor

Those Denons are nice decks...had one with a DL103 on it and it sounded great.

The DL103 is probably one of the most misunderstood cartridges out there. It has a compliance of 5…I didn’t miss a digit. When I read of people putting these on Origin Live or Rega arms and talking about hearing angels coming out of their speakers I have to laugh- there is no way on earth that sound right! They are either delusional or have tin ears. Even if you mass load the arm, it won’t change the effective mass and resonance of the arm enough to tame a suspension and cantilever that rigid.
Now put that Denon on an incredibly high mass arm like a Fidelity Research 64/66 or a Gray transcription arm (remember, these were broadcast cartridges from the early 60’s) and they are capable of surprisingly good sound. If doesn’t matter if you take off the plastic cover and put the motor in rosewood, aluminum or even naked- the suspension and cantilever is still the same design. Low compliance + high mass. High compliance + low mass.

TrboDieselPwrd · Dec 4, 2022

JwRosenthal
Also another thing to keep in mind is arm/cart compliance. Moving up to a 3009 (depending on which model, there were about 4-5 all with difference mass) may get you a better bearing (which is debatable about knife edge bearings), but if it’s not matched properly for the compliance of the cartridge it won’t sound right. I’ve seen some very $$$ cartridges matches to some very $$$$ arms that were totally wrong for each other regarding compliance/mass and they sound awful. I have had owners of high end tables bemoan “but they are both very expensive, it should sound great! I read online reviews saying they were a great match”. Inversely I have heard relatively cheap cartridges sound outstanding on relatively cheap turntables/arms - all in the compliance- math and physics don’t don’t care how much it cost.

Yep, cheap and good is what I'm going for! For sure compliance and "synergy" are important. The higher mass headshell was necessary for matching arm/cart compliance. Still need to make sure the VTA and VTF are good too, I don't think I have everything dialed in yet but that's part of the fun!

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

TrboDieselPwrd
Yep, cheap and good is what I'm going for! For sure compliance and "synergy" are important. The higher mass headshell was necessary for matching arm/cart compliance. Still need to make sure the VTA and VTF are good too, I don't think I have everything dialed in yet but that's part of the fun!

It is. The classic Shure see-saw scale is still the best. The electronic ones are problematic for MC carts as the metal plate attracts the magnets and adds tracking force (and if strong enough can slam the magnets to the scale and take out the cantilever). VPI used to provide a fancy digital scale with their tables and after realizing how many MC carts got mangled, they went back to including the Shure scales.
The SL1200 actually has a decent VTA on the fly system (if you are careful and the collar is freshly greased) so it’s actually pretty easy to dial it in my ear.

TrboDieselPwrd · Dec 4, 2022

JwRosenthal
The DL103 is probably one of the most misunderstood cartridges out there. It has a compliance of 5…I didn’t miss a digit. When I read of people putting these on Origin Live or Rega arms and talking about hearing angels coming out of their speakers I have to laugh- there is no way on earth that sound right! They are either delusional or have tin ears. Even if you mass load the arm, it won’t change the effective mass and resonance of the arm enough to tame a suspension and cantilever that rigid.
Now put that Denon on an incredibly high mass arm like a Fidelity Research 64/66 or a Gray transcription arm (remember, these were broadcast cartridges from the early 60’s) and they are capable of surprisingly good sound. If doesn’t matter if you take off the plastic cover and put the motor in rosewood, aluminum or even naked- the suspension and cantilever is still the same design. Low compliance + high mass. High compliance + low mass.

And the incredibly low output. I'm not sure what they were using in those broadcast studios, but probably some sort of step-up transformer or crazy pre-amp.

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

TrboDieselPwrd
And the incredibly low output. I'm not sure what they were using in those broadcast studios, but probably some sort of step-up transformer or crazy pre-amp.

Yup- basically microphone transformers- they were what all later MC transformers were based on. They were built into the studio consoles.
I have several cartridge factory transformers (including the correct Denon for the 103) and have a couple of custom made transformers for my LOMC carts built around studios microphone transformers- all have slightly different characteristics based on design but all have very specific impedance, so work with cartridges in those ranges.

TrboDieselPwrd · Dec 4, 2022

Microphone transformers...interesting. And makes sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if the 103 was designed that way to work with existing or standard equipment back in the 60s. Still, it has managed to become a classic in the home hifi world which is interesting because it needs special treatment, at least compared to most other MC carts. Maybe because it has lived in more of an audiophile space people have known what to do with it.

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

TrboDieselPwrd
Microphone transformers...interesting. And makes sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if the 103 was designed that way to work with existing or standard equipment back in the 60s. Still, it has managed to become a classic in the home hifi world which is interesting because it needs special treatment, at least compared to most other MC carts. Maybe because it has lived in more of an audiophile space people have known what to do with it.

I think because it has always been cheap and someone on the internet said it was great is why I blew up in popularity- amazing how the internet can create a cult around something just based on rumor. They are so fussy for compliance that they aren’t a practical cartridge at all (seriously- only a handful of arms made since the 70’s can actually track them properly). But like any cartridge- it will make sound when it’s applied to a piece of vinyl- so if it makes sound, it must be working!

BlackTalon · Dec 4, 2022

@JwRosenthal , you ever get to photograph gear at the Packard Center in Culpeper? If you haven't been there definitely see if work will approve a trip. They have a lot of very cool gear. I only got to look through the glass walls, but you can likely get into the transcription rooms.

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

BlackTalon
@JwRosenthal , you ever get to photograph gear at the Packard Center in Culpeper? If you haven't been there definitely see if work will approve a trip. They have a lot of very cool gear. I only got to look through the glass walls, but you can likely get into the transcription rooms.

I’ve seen the facility and took some snaps with my phone when I was there- absolutely amazing facility.
For those that don’t know, the Packard Center is the remote location used by the US Library of Congress for the transcription and archive of recorded motion picture and music media. They have the ability to transcribe every form of media ever made and maintain equipment for that purpose (they have a staff that do nothing but service and maintain all the equipment used to play back anything from the most advanced digital media all the way back to diamond discs and player rolls. They also keep a small warehouse called the “graveyard” where they keep all the extra equipment for parts to support the working studio machines- I almost died walking through that warehouse.
They do the same with all motion picture media and maintain a deep cold storage for nitrate films. They have parkas at the door before you enter- they are truly freezing.
The design of these cold storage facilities is amazing- I didn’t know before I went there that cold storage facilities actually have heated floors! Why you may ask- because if it were continually cold, the ground water under the floor would create a giant “ice ball” and as it expanded would crack the slab…who knew?!?!

ghce · Dec 4, 2022

JwRosenthal
I’ve seen the facility and took some snaps with my phone when I was there- absolutely amazing facility.
For those that don’t know, the Packard Center is the remote location used by the US Library of Congress for the transcription and archive of recorded motion picture and music media. They have the ability to transcribe every form of media ever made and maintain equipment for that purpose (they have a staff that do nothing but service and maintain all the equipment used to play back anything from the most advanced digital media all the way back to diamond discs and player rolls. They also keep a small warehouse called the “graveyard” where they keep all the extra equipment for parts to support the working studio machines- I almost died walking through that warehouse.
They do the same with all motion picture media and maintain a deep cold storage for nitrate films. They have parkas at the door before you enter- they are truly freezing.
The design of these cold storage facilities is amazing- I didn’t know before I went there that cold storage facilities actually have heated floors! Why you may ask- because if it were continually cold, the ground water under the floor would create a giant “ice ball” and as it expanded would crack the slab…who knew?!?!

Wow that sounds like a bucket list place to see or even better to work in!
I know I am qualified after a lifetime in electronics 😀

JwRosenthal · Dec 4, 2022

ghce
Wow that sounds like a bucket list place to see or even better to work in!
I know I am qualified after a lifetime in electronics 😀

I know they do some tours (don’t know how extensive) and they do regular movie screening nights there in one of their theaters. Martin Scorsese has worked with them for several decades on the preservation of film.

rob#1 · Dec 5, 2022

JwRosenthal
It is. The classic Shure see-saw scale is still the best. The electronic ones are problematic for MC carts as the metal plate attracts the magnets and adds tracking force (and if strong enough can slam the magnets to the scale and take out the cantilever). VPI used to provide a fancy digital scale with their tables and after realizing how many MC carts got mangled, they went back to including the Shure scales.
The SL1200 actually has a decent VTA on the fly system (if you are careful and the collar is freshly greased) so it’s actually pretty easy to dial it in my ear.

When I was DJing the vertical tracking adjustment on hired 1200s was either one or two 5 cent coins superglued to the headpiece 😲

felsby · Dec 5, 2022

JwRosenthal
The DL103 is probably one of the most misunderstood cartridges out there. It has a compliance of 5…I didn’t miss a digit. .......

Yes, measured @100Hz. With decreasing frequency, the dynamic compliance approximates 12mm/N, thus usable in medium mass arms. Measurements of arm/PU resonance frequency confirm this figure.

JwRosenthal · Dec 5, 2022

felsby
Yes, measured @100Hz. With decreasing frequency, the dynamic compliance approximates 12mm/N, thus usable in medium mass arms. Measurements of arm/PU resonance frequency confirm this figure.

I’ve read those specs and it baffles me because the cartridge doesn’t behave that way- it can actually jump right out of a groove in some medium mass arms. Most people either try mass loading or fluid dampening to try and tame that (I have done both)- which helps but isn’t the real answer.

felsby · Dec 5, 2022

JwRosenthal
I’ve read those specs and it baffles me because the cartridge doesn’t behave that way- it can actually jump right out of a groove in some medium mass arms. Most people either try mass loading or fluid dampening to try and tame that (I have done both)- which helps but isn’t the real answer.

Mine works like a charm in the Kenwood KD-7010 arm, with an effective mass of about 17g. I can calculate the resonance when I get the cartridge weight.

JwRosenthal · Dec 5, 2022

felsby
Mine works like a charm in the Kenwood KD-7010 arm, with an effective mass of about 17g. I can calculate the resonance when I get the cartridge weight.

17g is on the higher side of medium so that is flirting with the mass that I have seen work. The 103 doesn’t do well on my SME3009-II, even with fluid dampening (probably due to the knife edge bearing). On my FR54 arm with an effective mass of 16g it does better, but on my AT1005-II at 20g it start to settle down and lose the tizzy upper end and bass gets more defined and articulate. On my FR64 at 32g it’s fabulous.

Engee · Dec 14, 2022

So here’s the upgraded set up from top to bottom:

Linn LP12 with Ittok LVII tonearm and Dynavector DV 10X5 cartridge

Metrum Acoustics power supply and DAC

Audiolab 6000 CD Transport

Croft Vitale pre amp (the only component apart from the speakers that survived the upgrade)

Trio L-O5M monoblocks

and out of the picture, a pair of B&Ws on the wall.

For the Hi-Fi enthusiasts among us...

JwRosenthal

TrboDieselPwrd

JwRosenthal

JwRosenthal

TrboDieselPwrd

JwRosenthal

TrboDieselPwrd

JwRosenthal

TrboDieselPwrd

JwRosenthal

BlackTalon

JwRosenthal

ghce

JwRosenthal

rob#1

felsby

JwRosenthal

felsby

JwRosenthal

Engee

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