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BlackTalon
··This Space for RentNot talking about auctions, talking about BINs or "Best Offers" - a fact I may have omitted since I rarely do auctions
Ebay Can Now Take Their Cut Even If You Don't Sell
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberIncidentally it is possible to circumvent EBay monitoring of Buyer / Seller or Seller / Buyer communication by logging onto EBay from a Country with much tougher Digital Data Protection laws
I have, in the past, opened conversations with Sellers ( to see if there is an opportunity to see the piece ), by logging onto ( for example ) EBay Germany, and sending a message from there
I know some people may frown upon such communication.......but often it is the difference between Winning…… & Whining
And there seems to be enough whining in this thread already…
Wait - are you suggesting that data-protection laws can somehow prevent eBay from monitoring its own internal messaging system??!
Color me skeptical...
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Modest_Proposal
·No of course it's not arbitrary. Its 100% thought out and calculated. Calculated to be unfair:
Ebay wants as much traffic as possible on the website, therefore it is removing all semblance of buyer accountability because it turns buyers off when they are held accountable for bad actions. Ebay said practically this exact same thing when they removed the ability to leave negative feedback 10 years ago. Ebay goal of keeping large potential buyer pool - done.
For many sellers, Ebay also knows that there is no viable alternative, so it can be more onerous. Not able to leave feedback, not refunding listing fees on canceled orders, taking commission on shipping costs, and now taking commission on unconsummated sales? What is a seller going to do? Sell on competing platforms? The only viable competitor is Amazon, and there is a very high barrier of entry to that platform. So Ebay knows sellers will "suck it up".
That's a really long way of saying that the damages to Ebay's business due to seller cancellations are not proportional to the damages to Ebay's business due to buyer cancellations.
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Modest_Proposal
·Alternatively, it could be said that sellers are more willing to endure punishment than buyers and continue being members.
In either case, it is what it is because the wiz is in the hiz and that's the biz, fizz.
I agree that it unfair. That buyers should receive greater punishment. And that not being able to provide buyers with feedback is bullshit.
But this is a business. Not a charity. And as long as you continue to benefit financially from their website to the extent that you complain about them unendingly and continue to be their customer - you are doing well by them.
In either case, it is what it is because the wiz is in the hiz and that's the biz, fizz.
I agree that it unfair. That buyers should receive greater punishment. And that not being able to provide buyers with feedback is bullshit.
But this is a business. Not a charity. And as long as you continue to benefit financially from their website to the extent that you complain about them unendingly and continue to be their customer - you are doing well by them.
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WatchVaultNYC
·So these issues make me wonder. Since you rarely do auctions, why don't you just sell the watches through your own web site? Then no eBay hassle, and you can even dictate payment conditions (within reason depending on payment types).
Good question. Watch Biz Net Revenue % per sales channel 2017:
Website 45%
Ebay 22%
Chrono24 21%
Forums 6%
Amazon (live last month) 3%
Tradesy 2%
Facebook 1%
Gotta take the Ebay good with the bad. That said, Chrono24 is greatly expanding its reach in terms of allowable payments this year, so I expect it to overtake Ebay in 2018. Same goes with Amazon, which I bet will hit 20% or better in the first full year of sales..
Non Watch Biz Net Revenue % per channel 2017
Amazon: 45%
Website 34%
Ebay 21%
On the 2nd set of data, it used to be an equal percentage for years and years. The last 2 years though, Amazon is gaining percentage at the expense of Ebay, while website % remain constant.
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WatchVaultNYC
·Alternatively, it could be said that sellers are more willing to endure punishment than buyers and continue being members.
In either case, it is what it is because the wiz is in the hiz and that's the biz, fizz.
I agree that it unfair. That buyers should receive greater punishment. And that not being able to provide buyers with feedback is bullshit.
But this is a business. Not a charity. And as long as you continue to benefit financially from their website to the extent that you complain about them unendingly and continue to be their customer - you are doing well by them.
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sgrossma
·P
Where does this data come from?
Good question. Watch Biz Net Revenue % per sales channel 2017:
Website 45%
Ebay 22%
Chrono24 21%
Forums 6%
Amazon (live last month) 3%
Tradesy 2%
Facebook 1%
Gotta take the Ebay good with the bad. That said, Chrono24 is greatly expanding its reach in terms of allowable payments this year, so I expect it to overtake Ebay in 2018. Same goes with Amazon, which I bet will hit 20% or better in the first full year of sales..
Non Watch Biz Net Revenue % per channel 2017
Amazon: 45%
Website 34%
Ebay 21%
On the 2nd set of data, it used to be an equal percentage for years and years. The last 2 years though, Amazon is gaining percentage at the expense of Ebay, while website % remain constant.
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WatchVaultNYC
·
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Archer
··Omega Qualified Watchmaker50% of sales, canceled even before payment. 100% because buyer backs out.
I am sure forum peeps personally are not included in this generalization, but half of Ebay buyers for the type of watches I sell are deadbeats. And I just showed you the data that proves it.
I have an order from a guy who has an address overseas that I can't ship to safely (i.e. can't insure a package to that location). So I had to cancel his order.
The country was allowed, but the specific address was not insurable. And I'm not going to ship to a fraud-ridden country if I can't have my packages insured.
You seem to have invalidated your own proof, since you are now cancelling a transaction.
Not talking about auctions, talking about BINs or "Best Offers" - a fact I may have omitted since I rarely do auctions
Yes, sort of an important fact actually.
But to keep Ebay as a viable selling platform for me, this is the #1 thing I'm going to do - raise prices to cover additional losses from sales that cannot be completed for various reasons 100% of the time does not include "side deals" or "getting a higher offer elsewhere", where Ebay now insists they get a cut out of the sale than never happened. Guess who pays in the end?
This I don't understand - you claim that you essentially never back out of deals and it's 100% "deadbeat" buyers (except when it is actually you like the case above) and you are going to raise your prices to cover fees that you won't pay because you don't do the thing that gets you charged with fees? 😵💫
If you are not using auctions, then cancelling a sale should be a very rare (almost non-existent) occurrence, as you have even tried to prove using your own stats. So for you as a seller this should mean almost nothing, yet here we are on page 5 of your thread ranting at evil eBay...
Puzzled...
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WatchVaultNYC
·You seem to have invalidated your own proof, since you are now cancelling a transaction.
If you are not using auctions, then cancelling a sale should be a very rare (almost non-existent) occurrence, as you have even tried to prove using your own stats. So for you as a seller this should mean almost nothing, yet here we are on page 5 of your thread ranting at evil eBay...
Puzzled...
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BenjaminT
·In an Ebay auction, only sellers are penalized if they do not follow through. Bidders can change their mind at any point with absolutely no penalty. So your argument is moot.
If you are a serious seller, I think it is in your best interest that potential buyers are not discouraged from using that platform.
That could be by unreliable sellers which cancel auction on a regular basis.
Another reason could be by overly strict enforcement of the policies which are still in place today.
Does it give you any benefit if the buyer is forced to pay - and will return the item thereafter. In many countries he is entitled to do so anyway and where he is not he will find some reason.
In most jurisdiction rules are slightly asymmetrical privileging the consumer over the professional vendor. And there are good reasons for it. Even from vendor side. Because it creates a favorable business climate if the black sheep are kept under tight control.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerThis is something I have very limited control over (even with some domestic locations)
For "problematic" zip codes in the US, ParcelPro will provide other secure means of getting the package to the buyer (I have gone through this process myself with shipments to specific zip codes in California), so I'm not sure there are any locations that they will 100% refuse to insure a shipment to. If you have had this happen I would be interested to know where these locations might be...
In the table I shared earlier, 3 out of 6 sales are canceled by the buyer who has made an offer which I accepted, or bought outright without negotiation. None were auctions. So yes, canceling a sale happens all the time on-non auctions and quite the opposite of "non existent".
But I'm referring to you, the seller, backing out. In the first post in this thread you gave the scenarios that were the issue I thought...
"Not sure if you've noticed, but Ebay will take their "Final Value Fee" even if you dont conclude a sale:
- if you end an auction early, Ebay may skim their final value fee as if it had sold
- if you cancel a paid order, Ebay may still skim their final value fee
I understand that there are bad actors on Ebay that try to conclude business elsewhere in order to avoid fees, but there are legit ways that the above scenarios happen - like if you change your mind during an auction (you don't think your item will sell at a good price, so you end an auction early, or where your item was sold to another person outside of Ebay and you were not able to close the listing in time before another guy bought the same item on Ebay. Happens more often than you think."
This is the seller ending sales, and as the seller you are in complete control over ending your own sales. You can simply not end any sales (which you already say you don't do anyway) and not have a problem, right?
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yinzerniner
·So fees that Ebay insists it must take for non-sales will have to be made up for somewhere
I'm still puzzled by this. Other than the auction YOU ended early because of a change of heart, what fees did Ebay take from you off of non-sales? You keep mentioning the 3 of 6 were cancelled, but that's a limited sample size compared to your overall throughput. In what way (other than personal annoyance) did you feel that Ebay wronged you off of sales that were never consummated?
As stated before, unless there is an internal error which can be easily rectified through a call to customer service, you don't get charged fees unless an item is paid for.
I totally agree that the inability to leave buyer feedback is B.S., but with the protections in place are you really that much worse off for just relisting an item due to a flaky/shady/idiotic/PURE EVIL/possible non-human buyer?
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WatchVaultNYC
·I'm still puzzled by this. Other than the auction YOU ended early because of a change of heart, what fees did Ebay take from you off of non-sales? You keep mentioning the 3 of 6 were cancelled, but that's a limited sample size compared to your overall throughput. In what way (other than personal annoyance) did you feel that Ebay wronged you off of sales that were never consummated?
As stated before, unless there is an internal error which can be easily rectified through a call to customer service, you don't get charged fees unless an item is paid for.
I totally agree that the inability to leave buyer feedback is B.S., but with the protections in place are you really that much worse off for just relisting an item due to a flaky/shady/idiotic/PURE EVIL/possible non-human buyer?
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WatchVaultNYC
·For "problematic" zip codes in the US, ParcelPro will provide other secure means of getting the package to the buyer (I have gone through this process myself with shipments to specific zip codes in California), so I'm not sure there are any locations that they will 100% refuse to insure a shipment to. If you have had this happen I would be interested to know where these locations might be...
But I'm referring to you, the seller, backing out. In the first post in this thread you gave the scenarios that were the issue I thought...
"Not sure if you've noticed, but Ebay will take their "Final Value Fee" even if you dont conclude a sale:
- if you end an auction early, Ebay may skim their final value fee as if it had sold
- if you cancel a paid order, Ebay may still skim their final value fee
I understand that there are bad actors on Ebay that try to conclude business elsewhere in order to avoid fees, but there are legit ways that the above scenarios happen - like if you change your mind during an auction (you don't think your item will sell at a good price, so you end an auction early, or where your item was sold to another person outside of Ebay and you were not able to close the listing in time before another guy bought the same item on Ebay. Happens more often than you think."
This is the seller ending sales, and as the seller you are in complete control over ending your own sales. You can simply not end any sales (which you already say you don't do anyway) and not have a problem, right?
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorI have the solution to all of this!!!!
EBay reduces their seller fees from 10% to 5%. They then add a buyer's premium of 5%. In the event of any cancellation, eBay refunds the fee of the party not at fault.
That won't affect anyone's business ... right?
eBay is a lot like dealing with a real estate broker. The seller generally pays the commission since the seller is the one receiving the service.
If you as a seller don’t think you are getting a fair deal for the commissions you pay, then there is a very simple answer.
Don’t use their service.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
gatorcpa
PS - I don’t use auction houses as I don't think their 20% to 30% buyers’ fees are fair for the services they provide. So I walk the walk as a buyer also.
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sgrossma
·Agree.
Also, if you are selling more than 2 or 3 large watches in a year, the fee is rather small for the service they provide if you open a beginner store... 10% capped at 250. On a $5k watch, that is 5% selling fee in the US. On a $10K watch, that's only 2.5%.
Main reason that buyer feedback was taken away is because typically buyer does nothing but pay for an item and they didn't want buyers to be scared of retaliation feedback. eBay and Paypal do deal with buyers that create problems over and over again. I think we just don't hear about it as often.
There are several cons and nuisances to eBay, but again, follow the rules as a seller and the number of problems in relation to successes should be relatively small. Alternatively, don't use eBay.
Also, if you are selling more than 2 or 3 large watches in a year, the fee is rather small for the service they provide if you open a beginner store... 10% capped at 250. On a $5k watch, that is 5% selling fee in the US. On a $10K watch, that's only 2.5%.
Main reason that buyer feedback was taken away is because typically buyer does nothing but pay for an item and they didn't want buyers to be scared of retaliation feedback. eBay and Paypal do deal with buyers that create problems over and over again. I think we just don't hear about it as often.
There are several cons and nuisances to eBay, but again, follow the rules as a seller and the number of problems in relation to successes should be relatively small. Alternatively, don't use eBay.
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ICONO
·Wait - are you suggesting that data-protection laws can somehow prevent eBay from monitoring its own internal messaging system??!
Color me skeptical...
I will colour you the softest gentlest pink…if that is your choice ?
Germany has some of toughest data and private privacy laws in the World
I buy a lot of watches from Italy…& very often Italian Sellers set lunatically unrealistic prices…confident in the knowledge that it can be negotiated down to saner level, once a conversation is initiated
I have never been censured / restricted by eBay, in communications with Sellers when using eBay.de as a platform, ( countless times )
I have been restricted by eBay.uk, ( temporarily ) when once offering to collect a piece personally from a seller in England
Go figure
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kkt
·I suggest that if Ebay collects money from the seller for a seller-cancelled transaction, Ebay ought to be sharing some or all of that money with the buyer whose time was wasted.
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberI will colour you the softest gentlest pink…if that is your choice ?
Germany has some of toughest data and private privacy laws in the World
I buy a lot of watches from Italy…& very often Italian Sellers set lunatically unrealistic prices…confident in the knowledge that it can be negotiated down to saner level, once a conversation is initiated
I have never been censured / restricted by eBay, in communications with Sellers when using eBay.de as a platform, ( countless times )
I have been restricted by eBay.uk, ( temporarily ) when once offering to collect a piece personally from a seller in England
Go figure
I do not believe that the monitoring of internal (corporate) messaging can possibly be impacted by Federal laws, in Germany, or anywhere else. Do you really imagine that any large corporation would allow a government to prohibit them from monitoring their own internal messaging systems?
Not a chance.
Furthermore, when you agree to use eBay, you are (via fine print) granting them access to such messages.
Your experiences must have another explanation, and it may simply be coincidence.
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