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eBay Authenticators Can Do No Wrong

dsio
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It’s definitely not an ideal situation at all, not sure how to best get through to them though given the size of the company.
 
JwRosenthal
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dsio dsio
It’s definitely not an ideal situation at all, not sure how to best get through to them though given the size of the company.
Shame there is no consortium of watch collectors- like a Union. Elected officials can petition on behalf of the constituents announcing intentions to boycott unless they remove the policy or at least amend it to allow an opting out.
 
dsio
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
Shame there is no consortium of watch collectors- like a Union. Elected officials can petition on behalf of the constituents announcing intentions to boycott unless they remove the policy or at least amend it to allow an opting out.
Yea companies like eBay and Amazon aren’t that big on unions 😀
 
kkt
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airansun airansun
Sue the authenticator as a John Doe and force eBay to disclose his identity.

He’s the one who, by his actions, actually broke the stem.

Most likely, but it would be hard to prove that by a preponderance of evidence, not having seen the watch when it arrived at the authenticator...
 
JwRosenthal
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kkt kkt
Most likely, but it would be hard to prove that by a preponderance of evidence, not having seen the watch when it arrived at the authenticator...
This is one of the inherent problems- two legs of shipping in which anything can go wrong, and 3 people handling the watch- who’s to blame when something like this pops up and how do you prove it.
 
Walrus
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Wow weird situation to be stuck in. Really a nice looking watch. Is the total fix 40 bucks? It’s still crappy of eBay either way but if you get of of this with just a 40 dollar repair it definitely could have been much worse if this is how eBay handles these matters.
 
Rado63
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I hear what you are alluding to, that Ebay authenticators can do no harm. You are contending the authenticator sent the watch to you with the knowledge that the crown was broken. Since Ebay and Paypal don't seem it have a history of protecting sellers, wouldn't it be a lot easier to simply send the watch back to the seller and explain that they found a fault? If any watch broke while in the possession of the authenticator, I think again they would return the watch to the seller as being defective or not as described. The concept of the authentication process is another factor that points to Ebay and Paypal being consistent with their protection of the buyer. I am sorry to hear that the watch broke for you on day one. Continue to follow up with Ebay to present the claim of the repair to the authenticator if possible. You mentioned this, "I took the watch to my watchmaker and he opened it up. Sorry I don't have photos of this, but he noted that there are no movement clamps in this case. Because of the design of the cap that holds the movement in place, the act of unscrewing the split caseback rotates the movement and puts torque on the stem: he believes this is how the stem got broken." If this watch and movement are supposed to have movement clamps, then doesn't that make the watch and movement to be not authentic? Should the authenticator know this if your watch maker knows this?
 
wsfarrell
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Rado63 Rado63
I hear what you are alluding to, that Ebay authenticators can do no harm. You are contending the authenticator sent the watch to you with the knowledge that the crown was broken. Since Ebay and Paypal don't seem it have a history of protecting sellers, wouldn't it be a lot easier to simply send the watch back to the seller and explain that they found a fault? If any watch broke while in the possession of the authenticator, I think again they would return the watch to the seller as being defective or not as described. The concept of the authentication process is another factor that points to Ebay and Paypal being consistent with their protection of the buyer. I am sorry to hear that the watch broke for you on day one. Continue to follow up with Ebay to present the claim of the repair to the authenticator if possible. You mentioned this, "I took the watch to my watchmaker and he opened it up. Sorry I don't have photos of this, but he noted that there are no movement clamps in this case. Because of the design of the cap that holds the movement in place, the act of unscrewing the split caseback rotates the movement and puts torque on the stem: he believes this is how the stem got broken." If this watch and movement are supposed to have movement clamps, then doesn't that make the watch and movement to be not authentic? Should the authenticator know this if your watch maker knows this?
1. It's quite possible that the stem got broken when the authenticator closed the watch, and thus he didn't realize it. My point was not that the authenticator knowingly did wrong, but that it's almost certain the damage occurred while the watch was at the authenticator.
2. My belief is that eBay authenticators AUTHENTICATE, they don't repair or even comment on faults. The only time they would send a watch back to the seller is if they found it to be a fake--that is, non-authentic. As has been discussed at length in this forum, "authentic" is a very slippery word. But that's a whole 'nother story.
3. I am continuing discussions with eBay.
4. The watch was not missing movement clamps. These old NOS cases had no provision that I could see for clamps. I don't know how Blancpain (for example) held their movements in place, but I have seen Blancpain casebacks engraved with a warning not to open the case, and to send it back to Blancpain for service. I can only surmise that Squale, when fitting the new movements in these cases, did so in a less-than-ideal way, so that a watchmaker unfamiliar with the innards could easily cause damage.
 
Archer
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wsfarrell wsfarrell
1. It's quite possible that the stem got broken when the authenticator closed the watch, and thus he didn't realize it. My point was not that the authenticator knowingly did wrong, but that it's almost certain the damage occurred while the watch was at the authenticator.
2. My belief is that eBay authenticators AUTHENTICATE, they don't repair or even comment on faults. The only time they would send a watch back to the seller is if they found it to be a fake--that is, non-authentic. As has been discussed at length in this forum, "authentic" is a very slippery word. But that's a whole 'nother story.
3. I am continuing discussions with eBay.
4. The watch was not missing movement clamps. These old NOS cases had no provision that I could see for clamps. I don't know how Blancpain (for example) held their movements in place, but I have seen Blancpain casebacks engraved with a warning not to open the case, and to send it back to Blancpain for service. I can only surmise that Squale, when fitting the new movements in these cases, did so in a less-than-ideal way, so that a watchmaker unfamiliar with the innards could easily cause damage.

Can you please show the case back of this watch?

If I'm reading the descriptions you've made correctly, it has a center cap and a threaded ring around it that compresses the cap and seals the watch, correct? If so, this is not an unusual design - very common on alarm watches for example. Watches that do not use case clamps are also very common, and they rely on the pressure of the case back pressing on a movement spacer to hold everything in place. Seems odd to me as someone who deals with these on a nearly daily basis that this would be the cause of a broken stem...so trying to understand this a little better.

There are a few things that can case a broken t=stem, but removing and installing the case back is not a common one I would say.
 
Bill Sohne
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Archer Archer
Can you please show the case back of this watch?

If I'm reading the descriptions you've made correctly, it has a center cap and a threaded ring around it that compresses the cap and seals the watch, correct? If so, this is not an unusual design - very common on alarm watches for example. Watches that do not use case clamps are also very common, and they rely on the pressure of the case back pressing on a movement spacer to hold everything in place. Seems odd to me as someone who deals with these on a nearly daily basis that this would be the cause of a broken stem...so trying to understand this a little better.

There are a few things that can case a broken t=stem, but removing and installing the case back is not a common one I would say.

Hi Al

Unless the tab , on the caseback was broken off and then when you tighten the caseback ring... it can cause the entire movement to twist ... just a thought of a non watchmaker...

@wsfarrell please post pics of the caseback ....

looking forward to learning more
bill
 
JwRosenthal
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Archer Archer
Can you please show the case back of this watch?

If I'm reading the descriptions you've made correctly, it has a center cap and a threaded ring around it that compresses the cap and seals the watch, correct? If so, this is not an unusual design - very common on alarm watches for example. Watches that do not use case clamps are also very common, and they rely on the pressure of the case back pressing on a movement spacer to hold everything in place. Seems odd to me as someone who deals with these on a nearly daily basis that this would be the cause of a broken stem...so trying to understand this a little better.

There are a few things that can case a broken t=stem, but removing and installing the case back is not a common one I would say.
This is also assuming that the authenticators handling the watch are indeed watchmakers who have experience. One can assume that with the influx of watches coming into these firms, that they hired less than qualified people to handle the basic inspections with a set of instructions (basically a factory). But since eBay has been so unwilling to provide the community with more information, we are only left to speculate who is handling our watches.
 
Larry S
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This is an absolutely chilling story. No thanks E Bay.
 
sgrossma
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Early on I had luck calling eBay on the phone and dealing with these issues. I think with a little effort you should get the repairs covered by eBay (if it is worth your time).

I now video tape every aspect very carefully of opening boxes from eBay. They have the security seal boxes, so it is easy to show that it was not tampered with. Before the red security tag is removed from the back of the watch, I video the watch up close and test all functions. Make sure that the watch does not leave the field of view at any point during the unboxing. I make sure to capture all accessories present (or not present).

This won't guarantee anything, but at least you prove it came that way if needed.
 
Archer
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
This is also assuming that the authenticators handling the watch are indeed watchmakers who have experience. One can assume that with the influx of watches coming into these firms, that they hired less than qualified people to handle the basic inspections with a set of instructions (basically a factory). But since eBay has been so unwilling to provide the community with more information, we are only left to speculate who is handling our watches.

I understand people here have very strong feelings about this program, and the vast majority of them are negative.

I'm just trying to understand the issue in this instance, before passing judgement.

As I've said many times before, having people hired off the street and trained to open watch cases is how many service centers for very large companies (like Omega) operate. In some cases, (Breitling) those same people are assembling your watch movement as well (selective assembly). I don't know if that is what's happening here, but if it is, it's certainly not out of the ordinary, and I would not assume it is the reason for this incident - again I'm trying to understand how the case back works, because I would rather fully understand this before I judge what has happened.
 
JwRosenthal
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Archer Archer
I understand people here have very strong feelings about this program, and the vast majority of them are negative.

I'm just trying to understand the issue in this instance, before passing judgement.

As I've said many times before, having people hired off the street and trained to open watch cases is how many service centers for very large companies (like Omega) operate. In some cases, (Breitling) those same people are assembling your watch movement as well (selective assembly). I don't know if that is what's happening here, but if it is, it's certainly not out of the ordinary, and I would not assume it is the reason for this incident - again I'm trying to understand how the case back works, because I would rather fully understand this before I judge what has happened.
Totally agreed. But the big issue here is a lack of accountability and recourse- which is the inherent problem with the system as it is. I’m sure there are growing pains with this program, but as the OP has experienced, eBay’s unwillingness to pursue an investigation into what happened and where is a serious problem.
 
Archer
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
Totally agreed. But the big issue here is a lack of accountability and recourse- which is the inherent problem with the system as it is. I’m sure there are growing pains with this program, but as the OP has experienced, eBay’s unwillingness to pursue an investigation into what happened and where is a serious problem.

I understand this point of view. However there have been prior instances, as noted by sgrossma, where they have rectified the issues.

As he says above, if this was pursued as those were it would also be resolved, but since this is a minor repair it's not likely worth the effort.
 
Dan S
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
Totally agreed. But the big issue here is a lack of accountability and recourse- which is the inherent problem with the system as it is. I’m sure there are growing pains with this program, but as the OP has experienced, eBay’s unwillingness to pursue an investigation into what happened and where is a serious problem.

I think this needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. If the authenticator determined that they could not have caused the damage in this situation (as Al is trying to determine), that would be a relevant factor. In other situations, perhaps eBay would treat it differently. We need more data over a longer period of time to really understand how this will play out. Obviously it's not fun being the Guinea pigs.
 
JwRosenthal
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Archer Archer
I understand this point of view. However there have been prior instances, as noted by sgrossma, where they have rectified the issues.

As he says above, if this was pursued as those were it would also be resolved, but since this is a minor repair it's not likely worth the effort.
I agree, for $40 it’s worth keeping the watch as it is an LE. I guess you’re attitude towards this all is far more pragmatic. I am bothered by it (clearly) as I hate when companies absolve themselves of responsibility to the consumer. It falls under the “to big to fail” category.
 
wsfarrell
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Archer Archer
Can you please show the case back of this watch?

If I'm reading the descriptions you've made correctly, it has a center cap and a threaded ring around it that compresses the cap and seals the watch, correct? If so, this is not an unusual design - very common on alarm watches for example. Watches that do not use case clamps are also very common, and they rely on the pressure of the case back pressing on a movement spacer to hold everything in place. Seems odd to me as someone who deals with these on a nearly daily basis that this would be the cause of a broken stem...so trying to understand this a little better.

There are a few things that can case a broken t=stem, but removing and installing the case back is not a common one I would say.
Your description is accurate. I'll add photos when I get it back from the watchmaker. He seemed to think the design was a problem, as the center cap moves when one turns the threaded ring. As the center cap rotates, it takes the movement spacer (and thus the movement) with it, trying to rotate the movement and putting pressure on the stem. I understand how this is NOT a problem in Speedmasters, say, since the center cap (i.e. caseback) only touches the movement spacer in a small nipple in the center, and thus cannot transmit much torque. In the Squale, the center cap and movement spacer are touching over their entire area, so if you try to rotate the (tight) center cap, the movement rotates with it. It would be nice if turning the threaded ring did NOT turn the center cap, but when things get tight (near closed), they move together.
 
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