Does my SMPc use a 2500c or 2005d movement?

Archer · Jun 22, 2016

Small world...you could say I know Hugh. 😉

I'm on the right here...he's on the left as you know...

In this one he's on the line shooting (the lefty of course), my other buddy and old team mate Shawn is spotting arrows, and I'm on the waiting line - team round at an event in Venezuela back in 2001...we won a bronze medal at this one.

Hugh and I have spent tons of time together over the years, even before he moved to Vancouver. We've roomed together many times, at the National Training Center in Montreal (ask him about the Lido hotel sometime - you will get some interesting stories I'm sure), tournaments all over the US, Canada, and beyond. I don't see him or Peg as much as I'd like to, but I still consider Hugh a very good friend that I have known for about 20 years now. I can hear that water drop sound as soon as I read his name on the screen here...😀

When we do get together, all we have to do is look at each other and say a word or phrase like "Hold onto your salad!" and we all break out laughing. There are so many stories I could not even begin to relate them all here.

He asked me to "coach" him through the 2008 Olympic trials, and of course I agreed. Since many of the top archers in Canada had the same coach at the time (including me) when we were all competing against each other in a serious event, the coach (also the coach of all our Olympic teams from 1996 to present) would back away from all of us to be fair. So when Hugh needed someone to help, he asked me. In the past we all sort of coached each other through events we were at when our coach was not present, so this was not an unusual thing for us to be doing for each other. He ended up 4th, so was the alternate - nearly broke me watching him lose the match that gave the third spot to another guy. Hugh absolutely deserved to go and was the better archer by far, but on that day he had one hiccup, and that was enough to cost him a spot. He handled it much better than I would have...I know how hard he's worked over the years.

Please say hello for me when you see him next! I really should email him soon...

Cheers, Al

DIV · Jun 22, 2016

Hey! very cool....thank you for sharing those photos and the stories...I just sent him an email checking in. I invited him to stay at my place for a weekend when he was competing at our local club here near Seattle. Like me, he's also a big movie buff, so that's another way we connected.
It amazes me how you guys have to stay fit, travel and perform the way you do....wow! Kudos!
I'll certainly ask him about those stories you mentioned including "hold your salad!"

larryganz · Jun 30, 2016

Archer
Hello - I have posted this information on other forums, and possibly even here somewhere, but I'll do it again quickly...

The 2 level co-axial escapement has an inherent design problem, which stems from the dual role of the upper co-axial wheel teeth, and the intermediate escape wheel teeth. These teeth are designed to fill 2 purposes, and the shape required for the teeth to do this causes a build up of sticky residue on these teeth, which eventually causes what is widely known on forums as "the stopping problem."

This problem exists on all 2 level co-axial designs so the 2500 A, B, and C, and others like the early versions of the 3313, etc.

Omega attempted to remedy this problem several times with different solutions, and their first attempts were not successful. In the end the procedures for the application of epilame to the co-axial wheel and intermediate escape wheel were changed, and also a specific lubricant is applied to all 20 teeth of the intermediate escape wheel, and it is applied in a fairly substantial amount (at one time these teeth were left dry). In addition on the 2500C, there is a new intermediate escape wheel used with a different surface finish, but since Omega does not offer a similar new wheel for the other versions, the real need for this new wheel is somewhat suspect in my mind. But as they require, when I service a 2500C that has this residue (most of the co-axials I see do, even if they have not yet stopped because of it) I always replace the wheel - it's only $20 or so and worth doing if it helps prevent this problem from coming back.

To the best of my knowledge, this last fix that Omega has implemented has mitigated the problem, at least to a point where the build up of this residue is not causing the watches to come in for service prematurely. But the inherent design issue, the shape of those teeth, is still there. If someone bought a watch late in the production of the 2500C, then this new procedure would have been implemented at the factory, so in those cases it's no surprise that watches have run for a few years without stopping. It does not mean that they won't have this problem eventually, but it may not cause the watch to stop before it needs service for other reasons.

To me the fact that all current Omega co-axials are the 3 level design, which completely eliminates this problem, tells me that Omega thinks the 3 level is a more robust design and has less potential to cause them warranty problems. The fact that the 2 level design has been eliminated completely from their offerings tells me they are not 100% confident that they have completely solved the issues.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

Thanks for the info, which seems to get clarified a little more every time you post it. The highlighted part does seem to be the case with my Planet Ocean Liquid Metal Limited Edition, which was originally sold in April 2011. Now 5 years later it's still running without the stoppage issue (red dot intact).

I posted some of this a while back. It seems to be running better now, between +3 to +6 seconds per day on the wirst, when checked randomly a few times a week over a couple of weeks. Amplitude is good, but I plan to drop it off for routine service this summer before anything goes wrong.

If I recall, the fix started showing up in new watches manufactured after late 2008 or early 2009, so do we have any real data that shows that watches made after that time indeed don't seem to be showing up with the problem 5 years later, or is it all anecdotal?

It would be a disaster for Omega if they had been forced to replace the older 2500A-2500C in older watches with a 2500D, but at least they were smart enough to stop using the 2-level after coming up with a fix for older watches, rather than keeping the 2-level and stubbornly insisting it had no issues. It's a shame that another movement got a new 3-level upgrade and the 2500 didn't. I bought my SMP ceramic just for the 2500D, since I had lost faith in the 2500C with what happened - for some reason I even considered a movement swap, since I like the PO more.

Undersköterskan · Jun 30, 2016

larryganz
Thanks for the info, which seems to get clarified a little more every time you post it. The highlighted part does seem to be the case with my Planet Ocean Liquid Metal Limited Edition, which was originally sold in April 2011. Now 5 years later it's still running without the stoppage issue (red dot intact).

I posted some of this a while back. It seems to be running better now, between +3 to +6 seconds per day on the wirst, when checked randomly a few times a week over a couple of weeks. Amplitude is good, but I plan to drop it off for routine service this summer before anything goes wrong.

If I recall, the fix started showing up in new watches manufactured after late 2008 or early 2009, so do we have any real data that shows that watches made after that time indeed don't seem to be showing up with the problem 5 years later, or is it all anecdotal?

It would be a disaster for Omega if they had been forced to replace the older 2500A-2500C in older watches with a 2500D, but at least they were smart enough to stop using the 2-level after coming up with a fix for older watches, rather than keeping the 2-level and stubbornly insisting it had no issues. It's a shame that another movement got a new 3-level upgrade and the 2500 didn't. I bought my SMP ceramic just for the 2500D, since I had lost faith in the 2500C with what happened - for some reason I even considered a movement swap, since I like the PO more.

The 3-level 2500D made its debut in 2011. And there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions by now, caliber 2500A-C manufactured between 1999 and 2011 that performs absolutely perfect. The problem does exist, as explained by Archer, but building up a sufficient amount of this residue to cause problems takes several years and if you keep servicing your watch every five years or so you're unlikely to have any problems (the sticky residue disappears after a good clean in the ultrasonic cleaner during routine service).

If you have a 2500A-C; enjoy it ! But dont keep it running for 10 years without servicing the movement. This applies to the 2500D aswell; although the escapement requires less attention, the rest of the movement does.

Regards
Undersköterskan

larryganz · Jun 30, 2016

Undersköterskan
The 3-level 2500D made its debut in 2011. And there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions by now, caliber 2500A-C manufactured between 1999 and 2011 that performs absolutely perfect. The problem does exist, as explained by Archer, but building up a sufficient amount of this residue to cause problems takes several years and if you keep servicing your watch every five years or so you're unlikely to have any problems (the sticky residue disappears after a good clean in the ultrasonic cleaner during routine service).

If you have a 2500A-C; enjoy it ! But dont keep it running for 10 years without servicing the movement. This applies to the 2500D aswell; although the escapement requires less attention, the rest of the movement does.

Regards
Undersköterskan

I was talking about the new intermediate escape wheel and new oiling procedure "fix" for 2500C, not the updated 2500D "fix". My POLMLE from 2011 hasn't had the stoppage issue after 5 years, but my 2009 PO2500 did after only 4 years.

The new intermediate escape wheel and lubrication seems to have been implemented in watches made around the end of 2008 or early 2009, based on my investigation. So, a 2500C manufactured (or properly serviced) after early 2009 seems to be less likely to have the stoppage issue during the 5 years between routine services.

The stoppage issue might be a good thing in the older ones, because it stops running before it's damaged from running until It's dry from lack of service. However, my 2009 PO2500 apparently was repaired by a watchmaker in 2013, but a year later was stopping again due to improper lubrication (or lack thereof) in the escapement.

Undersköterskan · Jun 30, 2016

The new intermediate escape wheel in caliber 2500C that is less prone to suffer from black residue entered production during week 33 in 2008. Caliber 2500C was in production during 2005-2011 and made its debut in the first generation Planet Ocean.

Regards
Undersköterskan

Archer · Jun 30, 2016

larryganz
The new intermediate escape wheel and lubrication seems to have been implemented in watches made around the end of 2008 or early 2009, based on my investigation. So, a 2500C manufactured (or properly serviced) after early 2009 seems to be less likely to have the stoppage issue during the 5 years between routine services.

Undersköterskan
The new intermediate escape wheel in caliber 2500C that is less prone to suffer from black residue (the new version is also present of course in caliber 2500D and in both cases easy to recognize by its greyish colour) entered production during week 33 in 2008. Caliber 2500C was in production during 2005-2011 and made its debut in the first generation Planet Ocean.

You are both adding to the confusion here...

As I have said here and other places many times, several things were tried in attempts to solve this problem, and not all of them worked. Although the new intermediate escape wheel was introduced in week 33 of 2008 (as noted on the tech guides that anyone can find if they look hard enough), that was not the point where the problems ended. You can't glean the whole story by just looking at tech guides...

This intermediate wheel was originally used without lubrication for some time after it's introduction, and the black residue still formed and stopped watches. Note that when the "stopping problem" was in it's prime time, watches were stropping a year after leaving the factory - this did not take 10 years to happen or Omega would have simply fixed it all when the watches came in for regular servicing. The final iteration of what was done (using the new intermediate escape wheel on the 2500C only, using epilame on that wheel, and adding specific lubrication in the form of an oil not used on any other watches) was implemented in 2010. It was not rolled out everywhere at the same time, since it was first done in Switzerland, and once proven, was communicated to other service centers about a year later.

Again as I have said, no new intermediate escape wheel was offered for the 2500 A and B, and only the new epilame and lubrication procedure is used. This tells me that the new intermediate escape wheel is pretty much irrelevant, or at the very most a minor part of the solution.

And just to correct the more of the misinformation being posted here by Undersköterskan, the 2500D does not use the same intermediate escape wheel as the 2500C does. It's a completely different wheel, and since the 2500D does away with the tooth form on the intermediate escape wheel and co-axial wheel that cause the problem in the first place, the lubrication scheme used on the 2500C does not apply to the 2500D.

Cheers, Al

Undersköterskan · Jun 30, 2016

Archer
You are both adding to the confusion here...

As I have said here and other places many times, several things were tried in attempts to solve this problem, and not all of them worked. Although the new intermediate escape wheel was introduced in week 33 of 2008 (as noted on the tech guides that anyone can find if they look hard enough), that was not the point where the problems ended. You can't glean the whole story by just looking at tech guides...

This intermediate wheel was originally used without lubrication for some time after it's introduction, and the black residue still formed and stopped watches. Note that when the "stopping problem" was in it's prime time, watches were stropping a year after leaving the factory - this did not take 10 years to happen or Omega would have simply fixed it all when the watches came in for regular servicing. The final iteration of what was done (using the new intermediate escape wheel on the 2500C only, using epilame on that wheel, and adding specific lubrication in the form of an oil not used on any other watches) was implemented in 2010. It was not rolled out everywhere at the same time, since it was first done in Switzerland, and once proven, was communicated to other service centers about a year later.

Again as I have said, no new intermediate escape wheel was offered for the 2500 A and B, and only the new epilame and lubrication procedure is used. This tells me that the new intermediate escape wheel is pretty much irrelevant, or at the very modst a minor part of the solution.

And just to correct the more of the misinformation being posted here by Undersköterskan, the 2500D does not use the same intermediate escape wheel as the 2500C does. It's a completely different wheel, and since the 2500D does away with the tooth form on the intermediate escape wheel and co-axial wheel that cause the problem in the first place, the lubrication scheme used on the 2500C does not apply to the 2500D.

Cheers, Al

Ah, my bad, I forgot about the three-level co-axial wheel in the D-version which requires a different intermediate escape wheel. Since the new epilame and oiling techniques were introduced, is it your opinion that the black residue-problem has diminished in A-C versions once serviced according to these changes ?

Regards
Undersköterskan

larryganz · Jun 30, 2016

Archer
You are both adding to the confusion here...

As I have said here and other places many times, several things were tried in attempts to solve this problem, and not all of them worked. Although the new intermediate escape wheel was introduced in week 33 of 2008 (as noted on the tech guides that anyone can find if they look hard enough), that was not the point where the problems ended. You can't glean the whole story by just looking at tech guides...

This intermediate wheel was originally used without lubrication for some time after it's introduction, and the black residue still formed and stopped watches. Note that when the "stopping problem" was in it's prime time, watches were stropping a year after leaving the factory - this did not take 10 years to happen or Omega would have simply fixed it all when the watches came in for regular servicing. The final iteration of what was done (using the new intermediate escape wheel on the 2500C only, using epilame on that wheel, and adding specific lubrication in the form of an oil not used on any other watches) was implemented in 2010. It was not rolled out everywhere at the same time, since it was first done in Switzerland, and once proven, was communicated to other service centers about a year later.

Again as I have said, no new intermediate escape wheel was offered for the 2500 A and B, and only the new epilame and lubrication procedure is used. This tells me that the new intermediate escape wheel is pretty much irrelevant, or at the very most a minor part of the solution.

And just to correct the more of the misinformation being posted here by Undersköterskan, the 2500D does not use the same intermediate escape wheel as the 2500C does. It's a completely different wheel, and since the 2500D does away with the tooth form on the intermediate escape wheel and co-axial wheel that cause the problem in the first place, the lubrication scheme used on the 2500C does not apply to the 2500D.

Cheers, Al

I don't see that I was adding that much confusion, being off by only one year on the
lubrication change. But thanks for clarifying further.

Archer · Jun 30, 2016

Undersköterskan
Ah, my bad, I forgot about the three-level co-axial wheel in the D-version which requires a different intermediate escape wheel. Since the new epilame and oiling techniques were introduced, is it your opinion that the black residue-problem has diminished in A-C versions once serviced according to these changes ?

Regards
Undersköterskan

From my post on page 1...

"To the best of my knowledge, this last fix that Omega has implemented has mitigated the problem, at least to a point where the build up of this residue is not causing the watches to come in for service prematurely. But the inherent design issue, the shape of those teeth, is still there. If someone bought a watch late in the production of the 2500C, then this new procedure would have been implemented at the factory, so in those cases it's no surprise that watches have run for a few years without stopping. It does not mean that they won't have this problem eventually, but it may not cause the watch to stop before it needs service for other reasons."

Archer · Jun 30, 2016

larryganz
I don't see that I was adding that much confusion, being off by only one year on the
lubrication change. But thanks for clarifying further.

larryganz · Jul 1, 2016

larryganz
The new intermediate escape wheel and lubrication seems to have been implemented in watches made around the end of 2008 or early 2009, based on my investigation. So, a 2500C manufactured (or properly serviced) after early 2009 seems to be less likely to have the stoppage issue during the 5 years between routine services.

Archer
You are both adding to the confusion here...

larryganz
I don't see that I was adding that much confusion, being off by only one year on the
lubrication change. But thanks for clarifying further.

Archer

Seriously? I'm starting to believe that you look forward to picking apart my posts. I DON'T CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT, AND DO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE. But If I had posted this slightly different version below, where I make a ONE year change in a couple of spots (from 2009 to 2010), I would have said what you said. But I feel like you'd pick it apart anyways.

"The new intermediate escape wheel seems to have been implemented in watches made around the end of 2008, along with a change in lubrication in 2010 (based on my investigation). So, a 2500C manufactured (or properly serviced) after 2010 seems to be less likely to have the stoppage issue during the 5 years between routine services."

So, if that modified statement isn't true, then you really are out to get me and I'm not paranoid.

Archer · Jul 1, 2016

larryganz
So, if that modified statement isn't true, then you really are out to get me and I'm not paranoid.

Larry - I'm not "out to get" anyone. And I'm not stalking you just waiting for you to post something that I can challenge (as they say, don't flatter yourself! 😉). I'm just trying my best to make sure that accurate information is out there. People do use this kind of technical information to make purchase decisions, at least based on the responses I see in these threads and the PM's and emails I get from people asking me about watches they want to buy. I can assure you I'd rather not have to comment time and time again on the same subject.

Please read this again...really closely...

"The final iteration of what was done (using the new intermediate escape wheel on the 2500C only, using epilame on that wheel, and adding specific lubrication in the form of an oil not used on any other watches) was implemented in 2010. It was not rolled out everywhere at the same time, since it was first done in Switzerland, and once proven, was communicated to other service centers about a year later."

So as noted in 2010 this was first implemented in Switzerland, tried for a year, and then rolled out to other service centers. So if you had a watch serviced in Switzerland in 2010, yes it would have used the new procedure. In NJ, no it would not, as that only happened from 2011 onwards based on what I was told by the trainer there.

Cheers, Al

larryganz · Jul 2, 2016

<-- throws arms up in the air and enrolls in English comprehension classes at University...

HogWldFLTR · Jul 21, 2016

Great info in the thread; 2909.50 inbound... Thanks for the detailed discussion!!!

Son of Light · Aug 28, 2016

A quick clarification question: the new SMP diver I just bought off jomashop last week, serial no beginning 87xxx and the box saying manufactured in April2015, definitely has the 2500D correct? Sorry I'm totally a noob and am overwhelmed by the movement info out there!

Tyreman · Aug 30, 2016

Son of Light
A quick clarification question: the new SMP diver I just bought off jomashop last week, serial no beginning 87xxx and the box saying manufactured in April2015, definitely has the 2500D correct? Sorry I'm totally a noob and am overwhelmed by the movement info out there!

Most likely does if you want you can ask them.
87***** is pretty well sure of that

Tyreman · Aug 30, 2016

I contacted Omega yesterday late in the afternoon with red card pics sent in from my Seamaster 300 M Co Axial # 859***** and received a reply 1:30 ish am.this morn
Mine was a 2500D