Does my SMPc use a 2500c or 2005d movement?

lhawli · Feb 19, 2016

Thanks Al and fskywalker 😀

Johannes - funny you say that! My PO is the watch I wear for outdoors activities i.e. Boating, running, gym, etc... It's my "SUV" watch and I love it. From dressy events I go to my DateJust II and for casual wear I go to my SubC.

FYI I have the bond nato strap on my PO and it is an absolute attention grab...

lhawli · Feb 19, 2016

Oh and for the record, I do five with my PO, scuba is one of my hobbies 😀

lhawli · Feb 19, 2016

I only wish I had the 42mm instead of my current 45.5 🙁

Texas_Tom · Feb 19, 2016

I thought the rule of thumb is that the pointy 4 font type is a D?

Johannes123 · Feb 20, 2016

texas_tom
I thought the rule of thumb is that the pointy 4 font type is a D?

Yes, and for the numbers with a "1" included ; at the 2500D it's font is "1" , at the C it's like "I" ( ecxept on the numbers 1 and 11. So for instance on C it's: " I6", and on a D it's: "16".
Also the number "2" is different, on a D the diagional line is a straight line ( like a / ), on a C this diagional is bended.

When you know where to look you can easily spot the difference between C and D on a PO.
It can only go wrong if the number date dial of a C has been replaced by the one of a D, during repair/ service.
Then it's not easy to spot the difference.

lhawli · Feb 20, 2016

I have an Omega PO 45.5 cal 2500D and I wish I had the same model and caliber only in a 42.

Here's where I am looking for advise. I found one PO 42 never serviced yet and purchased in 2011. It has cal 2500C though! Since 2011 is has been running fine, but assume naturally it is due for service anytime soon. I don't want 2 - I would probably want to sell mine, which was purchased in 2012 and never serviced.

In all your opinions, given that I really want the 42 instead, would you take a "risk" (if any) to go from rev D to C?

JCBS · Mar 8, 2016

Archer
Hi LeDave,

Well you heard wrong. The first 2500 did not have a letter after it - it became the A revision when the B was released. Then the C, and finally the D. The A, B, and C have all had problems, which is why there is a D revision - if it was working well why would they make all these revisions?

None of Omegas designs exactly match what George Daniels designed, but the big difference between the C and the D is that the C is a 2 level design, and the D is a 3 level design. Actually the A, B, and C are all 2 levels designs, and these are the most problematic.

Both the 2 and 3 level designs were initially thought up by George Daniels, not Omega. In fact the "new" 3 level design is the original co-axial design. The 2 level was made by Daniels when some brands he tried to sell the co-axial to said it was too thick, so he redesigned it to the 2 level to save vertical space.

The 2500D is less prone to problems, so maybe that is where you heard it requires less maintenance. As someone pointed out, Omega claims an increased service interval with these co-axial watches, but I personally have some issues with that. Even discounting the problem movements, the escapement is just one part of a whole system inside a watch that needs attention periodically. When I get a watch in that has stopped, it's the whole movement that needs service, not just the escapement. Usually it has stopped because all the oils in the train wheels have dried up and caused the watch to bog down and stop.

So the idea that creating less friction in one specific place (even an important one like the escapement) will magically make the service interval increase by orders of magnitude is not really true. It may increase the interval slightly, but over the years Omega has backed down considerably from their initial claims.

With regards to the beat rate, versions A and B are 28,8000, and version C and D are 25,2000.

If you want to know what movement is in your watch, PM me the full serial number and I'll look it up for you.

Cheers, Al

Hi Al,

Good thread. Can you give me an indication how long in years a service interval for the train wheels would be in most time? Probably this will be the same for any watch but I have the 8500 (Si14) . ;-) What is your experience with this?

Kind regards,
Arno

Nobel Prize · Mar 8, 2016

Lamz
I have an Omega PO 45.5 cal 2500D and I wish I had the same model and caliber only in a 42.

Here's where I am looking for advise. I found one PO 42 never serviced yet and purchased in 2011. It has cal 2500C though! Since 2011 is has been running fine, but assume naturally it is due for service anytime soon. I don't want 2 - I would probably want to sell mine, which was purchased in 2012 and never serviced.

In all your opinions, given that I really want the 42 instead, would you take a "risk" (if any) to go from rev D to C?

Yes. If nothing is happening already you're ok and a service will take care of any issue anyway.

Here's a tidbit of information. the famous Liquid metal LE edition that is considered collectible and one of the most beautiful Po's etc etc etc has a 2500C. You don't hear many complaints about that!!

Don't let yourself me carried into a frenzy over C this or D that. If it's running right it is a great watch on either caliber.

Archer · Mar 8, 2016

JCBS
Hi Al,

Good thread. Can you give me an indication how long in years a service interval for the train wheels would be in most time? Probably this will be the same for any watch but I have the 8500 (Si14) . ;-) What is your experience with this?

Kind regards,
Arno

It really depends on how the watch is used, but a safe bet would be 6 years or so.

larryganz · Mar 14, 2016

Nobel Prize
Yes. If nothing is happening already you're ok and a service will take care of any issue anyway.

Here's a tidbit of information. the famous Liquid metal LE edition that is considered collectible and one of the most beautiful Po's etc etc etc has a 2500C. You don't hear many complaints about that!!

Don't let yourself me carried into a frenzy over C this or D that. If it's running right it is a great watch on either caliber.

My PO LM LE is a 2500C and was originally sold in April 2011. It's almost 5 years old and it's never had the stoppage issue like my 2009 PO 2500 did in 2014.

There was a makers mark in my 2009 PO that says someone serviced it in 2013 when it was 4 years old, and they had apparently upgraded to the new intermediate escape wheel that came out around 2009. When my watchmaker opened it up he found the escapement to be bone dry with no trace of lubricant under the microscope. So, my issue was the previous watchmaker did a bad first service, and so within a year it was stopping frequently unless it was bumped or tapped to get started again. A proper service would not have allowed that to happen so soon.

My only complaint with my POLMLE is that it runs +7 sec/day in 3 of the 6 position (the exception being +2 crown up, +3 crown right, +5 crystal up). So the average on my wrist over several days is just under +6 sec/day, but I've seen more than +7 sec/day on the winder. To get it down below +5 sec/day I have to take it off when I go to sleep and let it rest in crown up position overnight. I might just take it to my Omega Boutique this summer a to get it serviced and regulated a year early.

DIV · Jun 19, 2016

Where does the 2403 (no date movement) of my AT Railmaster fit in?..did the 2403 movement also have A, B, C and D versions??

Archer · Jun 19, 2016

DIV
Where does the 2403 (no date movement) of my AT Railmaster fit in?..did the 2403 movement also have A, B, C and D versions??

2403 A and B versions only. 2403 A was a 28,800 movement, and 2403 B was a 25,200 movement. Both use the 2 level co-axial escapement, so in essence the 2403 B would be quite similar to the 2500 C in terms of the co-axial parts used.

Cheers, Al

DIV · Jun 19, 2016

Ah, thanks Archer....based on the smoothness of the seconds hand, I would guess that mine is an A...so far so good, fingers crossed!

(PS- I'm also an archer, mostly target/field compound, but I did pick up recurve for a few years and got my 1000 Star FITA pin)

Archer · Jun 19, 2016

DIV
(PS- I'm also an archer, mostly target/field compound, but I did pick up recurve for a few years and got my 1000 Star FITA pin)

Nice to meet another fellow archer. 👍

I have retired from competition now. I have a type of arthritis that restricts the motion of my neck, so I have maybe 15 degrees I can turn my head either way from center. As you can imagine, that makes it impossible for me to stand on the shooting line and turn my head towards the target, and still maintain proper alignment through my bow arm, shoulders, and back. Proper alignment is critical when dealing with the forces and volume of arrows involved in daily training and competitions - I shot between 46 and 48 pounds on the fingers for most of my adult Olympic recurve shooting career, and 1000 arrows a week was average volume I would say (up and down as required with periodization and preparation for tournaments). I started off shooting FITA barebow with a recurve of course, mostly field rounds through the woods, when I was 11 years old back in the 70's...

I did dabble with a training wheels (compound bow) once I hung up the recurve, but the feeling is just so different I didn't ever get the same satisfaction from it. For me there's nothing like hearing/feeling the clicker, and knowing that when the string leaves my fingers the arrow is going in the middle...it's like when a golfer hits a drive that is long and straight, and effortless - you just know it right away. Older video so quality not great, but an example...you can see my head doesn't turn quite all the away around here and this was 10 years ago...

Too bad that FITA rounds are a thing of the past these days, at least in high level competition. I always enjoyed the challenges of shooting 90, 70, 50, and 30 meters. Now everything is at 70, and that would get a bit boring, but at least you can't forget the change your sight between distances now!

But I know that since everything is match play oriented now, the change makes sense.

Cheers, Al

DIV · Jun 19, 2016

(Sorry for the major hijack, everybody)

Hey Al...great video....nice form....and yes, I totally agree about the enjoyment a with the shot sequence: good scapular rotation, expansion, the clicker going off, a clean release with bow arm follow-through and good arrow flight with ACE's (you probably shot X-10's) and then into that yellow ring like on your video...I may have been in a pretty good zone for 18 months or so until minor form issues started creeping in, like string hitting my chin, leaning back to much, p,I king the string etc.etc....going back to compound was a relief and I definitely applied what I learned from recurve.... It's a bit like golf, if you're not putting in a good amount of time, you go stale....with compound I find that I can continue shooting pretty well, even if I only shoot once a week. I still have my recurve gear (Hoyt GMX/W&W RCX-100 limbs) and will go back to recurve every now and then to keep things grounded, but I just love how consistent a release can be achieved with a D-loop and a back-tension mechanical release.

And I agree that it's sad about the 70 rounds replacing the multi-distance adventures of a 1440 round. My club still hosts 900 rounds for novice-level shooters that I enjoy on the 2nd day of weekend tournaments or for those who don't want to shoot the Olympic round at 70.

Thanks for the diversion!

Archer · Jun 20, 2016

DIV
(Sorry for the major hijack, everybody)

Hey Al...great video....nice form....and yes, I totally agree about the enjoyment a with the shot sequence: good scapular rotation, expansion, the clicker going off, a clean release with bow arm follow-through and good arrow flight with ACE's (you probably shot X-10's) and then into that yellow ring like on your video...I may have been in a pretty good zone for 18 months or so until minor form issues started creeping in, like string hitting my chin, leaning back to much, p,I king the string etc.etc....going back to compound was a relief and I definitely applied what I learned from recurve.... It's a bit like golf, if you're not putting in a good amount of time, you go stale....with compound I find that I can continue shooting pretty well, even if I only shoot once a week. I still have my recurve gear (Hoyt GMX/W&W RCX-100 limbs) and will go back to recurve every now and then to keep things grounded, but I just love how consistent a release can be achieved with a D-loop and a back-tension mechanical release.

And I agree that it's sad about the 70 rounds replacing the multi-distance adventures of a 1440 round. My club still hosts 900 rounds for novice-level shooters that I enjoy on the 2nd day of weekend tournaments or for those who don't want to shoot the Olympic round at 70.

Thanks for the diversion!

Hijacks are pretty common here. Yes shooting a recurve well requires a lot more time and effort - of course if you are 1400+ with a compound, then that also requires tons of time and effort as well. Heck breaking 800 FITA barebow requires effort - I did that as a junior, so no sight, stabilizers, cushion plunger (they called them Berger buttons back then), and aluminum arrows. Using the tip of the arrow as a guide, I was picking clouds to aim at for 90m. 😀

My form even in that video was not what it once was, but I still managed to hit the middle every so often. My wife was with me that night training - my coach lives 2 hours away, so my wife was the person who kept me in check between proper coaching visits. I was warming up at 90 and things were coming together, and as we were walking to collect arrows after my 2nd end, I said I felt like my next shot would be a 10. She told me I was full of it (a common occurrence!) and I said "Why don't you shoot a video through the spotting scope and we'll see if I'm right?" The next arrow was the one at the end of the shot, and she has a little chuckle at the end - not just a 10, but a solid X. 😉

And yes, I shot X10's, with tungsten points and spin wings. Shot Hoyt bows, so for several years shot an Avalon, and then after a Matrix. I sold my Avalon back-up bow, and the Matrix, but I still have the Avalon I shot as my primary bow - I can't give that one up.

I have lots of memorabilia from my shooting days, but only a very few things are out on display. No medals or trophies out on display, my National Team jacket hangs in a closet somewhere...but I do keep this on my watchmaking bench:

It's just a reminder of all the hard work put in over nearly 30 years in the sport. Never got the 1300 pin, so had to settle for the 1200 pin. 🤬

Cheers, Al

fskywalker · Jun 20, 2016

Archer
Hijacks are pretty common here. Yes shooting a recurve well requires a lot more time and effort - of course if you are 1400+ with a compound, then that also requires tons of time and effort as well. Heck breaking 800 FITA barebow requires effort - I did that as a junior, so no sight, stabilizers, cushion plunger (they called them Berger buttons back then), and aluminum arrows. Using the tip of the arrow as a guide, I was picking clouds to aim at for 90m. 😀

My form even in that video was not what it once was, but I still managed to hit the middle every so often. My wife was with me that night training - my coach lives 2 hours away, so my wife was the person who kept me in check between proper coaching visits. I was warming up at 90 and things were coming together, and as we were walking to collect arrows after my 2nd end, I said I felt like my next shot would be a 10. She told me I was full of it (a common occurrence!) and I said "Why don't you shoot a video through the spotting scope and we'll see if I'm right?" The next arrow was the one at the end of the shot, and she has a little chuckle at the end - not just a 10, but a solid X. 😉

And yes, I shot X10's, with tungsten points and spin wings. Shot Hoyt bows, so for several years shot an Avalon, and then after a Matrix. I sold my Avalon back-up bow, and the Matrix, but I still have the Avalon I shot as my primary bow - I can't give that one up.

I have lots of memorabilia from my shooting days, but only a very few things are out on display. No medals or trophies out on display, my National Team jacket hangs in a closet somewhere...but I do keep this on my watchmaking bench:

It's just a reminder of all the hard work put in over nearly 30 years in the sport. Never got the 1300 pin, so had to settle for the 1200 pin. 🤬

Cheers, Al

Nice Al! [emoji1303]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DIV · Jun 21, 2016

Cool stuff, Al....
I had a Matrix before I got e GMX....I like the GMX because it has a similar look to the classic Avalon, although different geometry. I read that the Avalon had limb*** weakness issues, that were finally corrected in the Avalon Plus....sounds like you didn't have any issues with yours.

***Correction: limb pocket riser weakness issues

Archer · Jun 22, 2016

Well I didn't mention it, but I have had 3 Avalons actually...the first was the original version (in black splash - a pattern I loved) and it was the riser that had the problems. I think I bought it in 1997 when the only other option from Hoyt was a Radian, or the old GM (Gold Medallist). PSE also made a recurve riser at the time (which also suffered from cracks), and Yamaha was the other major maker I would see at tournaments. W+W were not on the scene yet at that time.

I was at a tournament shooting a FITA one weekend, and my sight marks were fine at first, but as the day wore on, my arrows were dropping and I had to keep lowering my sight. Eventually it was enough that I could not explain it with conditions or possible form issues, and when I looked at the riser, it had cracked near one of the cut outs in the sight window area. 😲

Of course I stopped shooting immediately since I didn't want a large chunk of aluminum flying at my head a high speed. It was quickly exchanged for a new riser that I set-up, and that is the one I still have today - it is an Avalon+ as my other green riser was that I used as a back-up bow at major events. Here it is - can't recall what they called this pattern - my green one was the same pattern, just black and green instead of black and red:

You can see from the wear on the finish where my finger sling was that I put an arrow or 2 through this riser...

Here it is in action - 1999 Canadian Championships, gold medal match...it was July but only 7 degrees C out, windy and rainy. Good day for me personally though, since I won. 😀

Are you in the US? If so, and you attend any major events there that I used to go to (Gold Cup in NJ, Arizona Cup, US Nationals, Texas Shootout, etc.) then you may have seen or know George Tecmitchov. He is an engineer at Hoyt/Easton and was the one to modify the design for the Avalon+ to solve the cracking issues. I haven't spoken to him in years, but we used to hang out a fair bit at tournaments...we spoke at length about the issues with stresses in the riser design that lead to the failures. If you get a chance to talk to him, he's an interesting guy...

Cheers, Al

DIV · Jun 22, 2016

Archer, yes, I meant to say that the Avalon had cracking issues on the riser (I added a note of correction on my post), near the limb pockets....yup, yours is a familiar story....
I'm in WA State...I know of Tecmitchov, but don't know him personally....But hey!....you must know my friend Hugh MacDonald? As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure you do. He's the one who mentioned Archer Watches to me at a FITA shoot a few years back. He was my shooting partner and we hit it off pretty quick....great guy and great shooter too!