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gbesq
·Gasoline powered internal combustion engines aren’t going away anytime soon and there are technologies in development that will keep them around even longer. Mazda’s HCCI engine is a good example.
Current state of the car market (US)
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pdxleaf
··So on and so on and scoobie doobie doo...
Look, EV’s are great if they fit your lifestyle. I’m just not there yet. The price will only come down as more people buy them and better economies of scale kick in for production.
gatorcpa
That's a good summation for this Thread title.
As an EV fan (I know, who would have guessed), there seems to be a lot more acceleration in adoption, both by manufacturers and consumers. I see more evs and more variety. Even with the challenges, which are a lot, a safe bet is that EVs will be more mainstream in the next 10 years.
Edited:
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JwRosenthal
·If you live in an apartment building or condominium, you likely park in a garage or outdoor lot. In a condominium, the parking lots are considered common areas and you just can’t do what you want when you want. I can’t even imagine the restrictions in a co-op.
My office building has a couple of chargers. I think they charge 2 to 3 times the cost of a home fill-up. Still cheaper than gasoline. Have to pay for those hook-ups somehow.
Look, EV’s are great if they fit your lifestyle. I’m just not there yet. The price will only come down as more people buy them and better economies of scale kick in for production.
gatorcpa
My house was built in 1938 and I live in a densely populated urban area. I have a single car detached garage 60 feet from the back of my house and my vintage car lives in it) and no driveway. My wife and I park on the street which is 60 feet in front of the house across a lawn, through heavy growth, then a city sidewalk before it hits the curb. We do not have “assigned” parking, it’s a city street so we are lucky if we park in the same spot twice in a day. There are no utility poles in front of the houses, they are all in the alleys behind the houses, so no ability for the city to drop charging stations at the curbs without a total infrastructure overhaul.
So, in order for me to accommodate an electric vehicle, I would need to run a 100ft extension cord from inside my house ( I only have one exterior outlet on the back of the house so would have to pay an electrician to install an exterior outlet in the front) across a city sidewalk to my car on the street- if I am lucky enough to get parking in front.
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bradurani
·If you live in an apartment building or condominium, you likely park in a garage or outdoor lot. In a condominium, the parking lots are considered common areas and you just can’t do what you want when you want. I can’t even imagine the restrictions in a co-op.
My office building has a couple of chargers. I think they charge 2 to 3 times the cost of a home fill-up. Still cheaper than gasoline. Have to pay for those hook-ups somehow.
Look, EV’s are great if they fit your lifestyle. I’m just not there yet. The price will only come down as more people buy them and better economies of scale kick in for production.
gatorcpa
I see... I don't see it as a major impediment to have apartment buildings line the parking garages with level 2 chargers. These are not the super pricey superchargers. That will lag behind adaptation by homeowners with garages sadly. I'm hoping that demand reaches an inflection point in the next few years, and apartment owners will want to offer charging to make their properties more attractive, but I may be overoptimistic on the timeline. Workplaces are already making that transition easier in some more progressive cities by offering charging as a perk (my workplace has free charging for employees, but i don't use it since I charge at home).
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Vercingetorix
··Spam RiskNah, Rolex doesn't deserve the hype. Tesla does... for now. An explosion in competition has just arrived and now we get to observe and benefit from a business battle for the ages.
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wrist time
·If you live in an apartment building or condominium, you likely park in a garage or outdoor lot. In a condominium, the parking lots are considered common areas and you just can’t do what you want when you want. I can’t even imagine the restrictions in a co-op.
My office building has a couple of chargers. I think they charge 2 to 3 times the cost of a home fill-up. Still cheaper than gasoline. Have to pay for those hook-ups somehow.
Look, EV’s are great if they fit your lifestyle. I’m just not there yet. The price will only come down as more people buy them and better economies of scale kick in for production.
gatorcpa
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bradurani
·Fitting lifestyle seems to be the big assumption of the industry here- the current design of EV’s make a lot of assumptions about consumers which fits a very small percentage of average people. Furthermore, those pushing for mandates (or in government making policy) are also “of a certain lifestyle”- usually the same people that although well meaning, lack any understanding of how other people live.
My house was built in 1938 and I live in a densely populated urban area. I have a single car detached garage 60 feet from the back of my house and my vintage car lives in it) and no driveway. My wife and I park on the street which is 60 feet in front of the house across a lawn, through heavy growth, then a city sidewalk before it hits the curb. We do not have “assigned” parking, it’s a city street so we are lucky if we park in the same spot twice in a day. There are no utility poles in front of the houses, they are all in the alleys behind the houses, so no ability for the city to drop charging stations at the curbs without a total infrastructure overhaul.
So, in order for me to accommodate an electric vehicle, I would need to run a 100ft extension cord from inside my house ( I only have one exterior outlet on the back of the house so would have to pay an electrician to install an exterior outlet in the front) across a city sidewalk to my car on the street- if I am lucky enough to get parking in front.
Understood. One small quip though, replace "mandates" with "incentives". No one wants to be mandated, but incentives work. Free marketers don't like the government choosing the winners, but cars are not a free market. The very act of building roads is a massive government subsidy to the auto industry (to say nothing of bailouts, petroleum subsidies, traffic police, etc.), E.V. charging incentives are laughably trivial by comparison.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFI see... I don't see it as a major impediment to have apartment buildings line the parking garages with level 2 chargers. These are not the super pricey superchargers. That will lag behind adaptation by homeowners with garages sadly. I'm hoping that demand reaches an inflection point in the next few years, and apartment owners will want to offer charging to make their properties more attractive, but I may be overoptimistic on the timeline. Workplaces are already making that transition easier in some more progressive cities by offering charging as a perk (my workplace has free charging for employees, but i don't use it since I charge at home).
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wrist time
·Gasoline powered internal combustion engines aren’t going away anytime soon and there are technologies in development that will keep them around even longer. Mazda’s HCCI engine is a good example.
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pdxleaf
··So on and so on and scoobie doobie dooHow are you charged at the charging stations? I see one at a library near me and I don’t see like a credit card slot or anything. Perhaps a dumb question but I’m curious about that
For non-teslas, the charge card is similar. You can join a network, some free and some with advance payment. Plug in, sign in, charge, get a monthly bill.
Many malls and grocery stores have free charging. The charging networks needed public spaces and tge stores saw it as a way of attracting consumers.
A developing problem is that many charging stations are now full with more EVs. Waits are longer. Practically, we don't depend on public chargers. It's at home or at work where we charge. Yes, that isn't practical for many long distance drivers with one car. That's why Teslas are popular, they have longer range. But other brands are coming out with longer range.
We actually like our older, shorter range Leaf. Main reason is that the longer range batteries cost more. For us, we'd be paying for something that rarely is needed.
Evs might be more of a special tool than a one size fits all. An ICE vehicle can do it all ( excluding emissions and fuel stations and delivery.) But that has costs too. EVs have different ranges, so a buyer needs to consider what they need for range.
Yep, it doesn’t work for everyone. But many people with shorter commutes are finding them workable.
As for infrastructure issues, automobiles had plenty of forced mandates. All those roads and highways didn't exist. What if cars had to build their own roads, how successful would they have been? Plus, they forced the destruction and removal of electric trolley lines that were competition. We have a long history of subsidizing industries and technology, sometimes for the public good and sometimes from greed and profiteering. Public transportation has been fought against by those with opposing business interests. It isn't a one way street here.
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pdxleaf
··So on and so on and scoobie doobie dooThe NEC changed, but not enough. Section 210.17 requires a dedicated circuit if an ev charger is installed. They considered requiring new construction to install a 240 dedicated circuit in garages in anticipation of a growth in EVs. This wasn't adopted because builders thought it could increase the cost of housing. ( kindof ironic in hindsight.)
Currently, having a dedicated circuit in a garage is considered a "selling feature".
Making this sort of a requirement in the code for new construction would help. A person could argue that outside forces are restricting their freedom of choice to buy an EV. Flip side is someone could say they should have the choice to add an ev circuit. (I trust no one thinks fire building codes are part of a liberal commie plot...)
Currently, having a dedicated circuit in a garage is considered a "selling feature".
Making this sort of a requirement in the code for new construction would help. A person could argue that outside forces are restricting their freedom of choice to buy an EV. Flip side is someone could say they should have the choice to add an ev circuit. (I trust no one thinks fire building codes are part of a liberal commie plot...)
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JwRosenthal
·For non-teslas, the charge card is similar. You can join a network, some free and some with advance payment. Plug in, sign in, charge, get a monthly bill.
Many malls and grocery stores have free charging. The charging networks needed public spaces and tge stores saw it as a way of attracting consumers.
A developing problem is that many charging stations are now full with more EVs. Waits are longer. Practically, we don't depend on public chargers. It's at home or at work where we charge. Yes, that isn't practical for many long distance drivers with one car. That's why Teslas are popular, they have longer range. But other brands are coming out with longer range.
We actually like our older, shorter range Leaf. Main reason is that the longer range batteries cost more. For us, we'd be paying for something that rarely is needed.
Evs might be more of a special tool than a one size fits all. An ICE vehicle can do it all ( excluding emissions and fuel stations and delivery.) But that has costs too. EVs have different ranges, so a buyer needs to consider what they need for range.
Yep, it doesn’t work for everyone. But many people with shorter commutes are finding them workable.
As for infrastructure issues, automobiles had plenty of forced mandates. All those roads and highways didn't exist. What if cars had to build their own roads, how successful would they have been? Plus, they forced the destruction and removal of electric trolley lines that were competition. We have a long history of subsidizing industries and technology, sometimes for the public good and sometimes from greed and profiteering. Public transportation has been fought against by those with opposing business interests. It isn't a one way street here.
I have grown tired of the eco-warriors lobbying for alternative fuel transportation but fail to push for massive investments in public transit- all very hollow and self serving and smacks of entitlement (I want my green world but don’t want to ride with the common folk).
Sadly, Covid has killed the push for increased ridership across the country as people are leery of getting in close contact with others- it will probably take decades for ridership to get back to where they were prior to the pandemic.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFThe NEC changed, but not enough. Section 210.17 requires a dedicated circuit if an ev charger is installed. They considered requiring new construction to install a 240 dedicated circuit in garages in anticipation of a growth in EVs. This wasn't adopted because builders thought it could increase the cost of housing. ( kindof ironic in hindsight.)
Currently, having a dedicated circuit in a garage is considered a "selling feature".
Making this sort of a requirement in the code for new construction would help. A person could argue that outside forces are restricting their freedom of choice to buy an EV. Flip side is someone could say they should have the choice to add an ev circuit. (I trust no one thinks fire building codes are part of a liberal commie plot...)
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pdxleaf
··So on and so on and scoobie doobie dooTotally agreed. I am a big advocate of public transit- have been a train commuter for 22 years (although getting to the train requires a car as they did away with our trolley system in the 60’s and the bus system has been gutted in the last 20 years). There was a proposition to put a mag-lev train between Baltimore and Washington 20 years ago along the existing Amtrak line (which was formerly a B&O line which has been in place since the 1800’s). It would have shortened the commute from 50 minutes to 16 minutes. It was quickly killed by special interests (developers) around the Washington metro area and NIMBY along the existing track system.
I have grown tired of the eco-warriors lobbying for alternative fuel transportation but fail to push for massive investments in public transit- all very hollow and self serving and smacks of entitlement (I want my green world but don’t want to ride with the common folk).
Sadly, Covid has killed the push for increased ridership across the country as people are leery of getting in close contact with others- it will probably take decades for ridership to get back to where they were prior to the pandemic.
Can you imagine a European style train system here?!! That'd be fantastic.
Couple stories. Back in the day I was stationed at Ft Meade, Maryland. I took a two week vacation to Scotland. Aside from renting a car in the river Spey area just so I could visit distillaries, I took a train everywhere. Needless to say, what a great trip.
When I back to Baltimore airport, I was stuck. No way to get back to post except a cab. It was pretty in my face the difference.
More recently, my wife is planning a trip for her 79 year old dad. He wants to ride the rails. Amtrak has a ticket that allows you 10 stops pretty much anywhere. He's leaving Portland towards Sacramento then Denver, Omaha, Lacrosse, Chicago, New Orleans, Houston and home. It's taking her hours of planning. Many places only arrive and leave once per day, sometimes in the middle of the night. Lots of places she had to rent a car to get him to the next spot because there’s no train.
Sad state of affairs.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI have grown tired of the eco-warriors lobbying for alternative fuel transportation but fail to push for massive investments in public transit- all very hollow and self serving and smacks of entitlement
Where I am, we have no public transport of any kind serving our community. Although our community is quadrupling (or more) in size, there are no plans for any form of public transport - we are still "too small" for that. I'm not an eco-warrior (not even sure what that is), however I will push for alternative fuel vehicles, as they are the only alternative I will ever see where I live, because a personal vehicle is the only choice.
My community is not alone in this situation, as there are thousands of smaller places that don't have the density or critical mass for public transport. Alternative fuels is the only way for us to become greener with regards to transport.
One doesn't have to come at the expense of the other - this isn't a zero sum game and people need to stop thinking of it as such.
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JwRosenthal
·One doesn't have to come at the expense of the other - this isn't a zero sum game and people need to stop thinking of it as such.
Of course remote rural areas will continue to be an issue for providing municipal services for which EV’s are a smart choice to get you to the closest public transit hub if one chooses.
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Walrus
·Property development and management is a very delicate balance of insurance, blame, liability, threat of non-compliance, finger-pointing, and offloading risk onto the stupidest and most financially desperate party. At some point soon that balance will change to make charging vastly more common but it will be difficult and different for every single jurisdiction.
I’m just very interested to see how it plays out. At this time Tesla has a massive lead with data of electric vehicles driving but there are no sure things something could come along making that obsolete. It’s all very interesting to me.
My neighbor has a six car garage. He is a “car collector”. He ordered a rivian early on and it gave him access to the Rivian ipo. He laughed as he told me about it. I try to watch my envy but I gotta admit I didn’t laugh with him. He is only in that monster house three months out of the year god knows how many cars he has at his other houses. Good for him but he could have given me the info a little earlier as apparently you got the stock ipo and could then cancel your order. Although you might not have needed to after that.
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bombaywalla
·How are you charged at the charging stations? I see one at a library near me and I don’t see like a credit card slot or anything. Perhaps a dumb question but I’m curious about that
if you buy more cloud storage, how does it get billed to you?
same way @ the charger stations........
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bombaywalla
·On a different tangent, i wish the States had a better train option.
Europe has fast trains, medium trains, local trains. You can get just about anywhere. Here, if you want to take a train cross country or to different regions, there are few routes, places impossible to reach, and schedules that arrive and leave once every 24 hours (looking at Amtrak.)
Lots of historical and political reasons for why our train system isn't better developed, of course. Without going into any of that, without better mass transport, it makes cars more a necessity.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified Watchmaker^ This! If we are serious, make the options so tempting (free, safe, reliable and convenient public transit) that people would be silly to keep daily driving their cars. It doesn’t need to be a punitive system, but as said above- incentivized.
Of course remote rural areas will continue to be an issue for providing municipal services for which EV’s are a smart choice to get you to the closest public transit hub if one chooses.
From a recent story I saw about transit, there are about 100 places in the world that currently don't charge directly for public transit. Personally, even though I don't have access to any, I would support this (with my taxes) as the way forward. Here in Canada it's already heavily subsidized, and fares don't cover the operating costs, so to me taking it all the way and making it free makes a ton of sense, at least for transport within a city.
This issue goes far beyond the surface level that has been talked about here. It all starts with smart planning, limiting sprawl (which is a money pit for municipalities generally and a financial burden on cities, that then create more sprawl to "grow out" of the problem), and increasing density through infilling.
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