Hi all,

Apologies in advance if this post contravenes any rules, especially re: price advice. I'm new and haven't been able to find a rules page! With that said -

My parents have found a rose gold Cosmic Moonphase (Portuguese day and month) in a local vintage watch shop, and they want to buy it for me for Christmas. I have not been able to ask the shop for a REF yet, but I'm told it's a 1949 watch. The dial is in good shape, but not perfect (I think it has a slight concavity in it around the moonphase window); the watch is in good running order (the seller is well-respected and specialises in vintage Omegas). The case is in great shape, but not as-new of course. The plexi crystal has a single scratch about 7mm long, hard to see on the crystal but projects a shadow on the dial in the right light.

Concerns:
- I think it is pretty overpriced, at close to 7000 GBP. I have not found any rose gold Cosmics at anywhere near that price, regardless of originality; this one has papers but no original case, and further:
- I don't know how to tell if it has been re-dialled, in which it is presumably *definitely* overpriced. I've seen tips about looking for a flat-topped "A" in "OMEGA", checking for the sizing of the "7" and "8" around the dial - anyone know which REFs might be for 1949, and whether there are specific things to look for to indicate a re-dial?
- I live in England. England is wet, of course. I've seen other threads discussing the watch as a wearable item which say that it should never be outside in rain. Does this include a day when the air is just misty/wet? I'd probably be able to wear it about 5 days a year in that case...
- I've heard that spare parts can be either unobtainable or at least prohibitively expensive. Is this true for all references?

Sorry if any of these questions are dumb, and that I haven't provided much information. I'm a big fan of modern Omegas, and I love their vintage ones too but until yesterday didn't know that the Cosmic Moonphase existed and had no idea what questions to ask the guys when I was in the shop for 5 minutes! I love the look of the watch, very elegant, if smaller than what I'm used to, and I'm happy to put the care in to keep it happy. Just want to "look before I leap", as they say!

Will try and provide photos later.

 

It's very difficult to advise without pictures, especially with the Cosmic, as the majority have been redialled. So your best bet to get any meaningful advice will be to post some decent pictures asap. But £7K sounds exorbitant to say the least. For that kind kind of money I'd expect to see a solid rose gold case, mint original dial, box&papers and a gilded lily for good measure!

I'm coincidentally wearing a rose gold filled 2486 jumbo Cosmic today and it is here very wet at the moment. I don't have any concerns as long as the watch stays dry. I certainly wouldn't do the dishes with it on or in fact any other activity involving water, but if worn carefully in rotation there's nothing really to worry about. Having said that I wouldn't consider a Cosmic as my only watch, a little too fragile for that.

There are various Cosmic references 2606, 2471, 2473, 2485, 2486 and the square cased 3944 each with their own characteristics, so also handy to know which one you're looking at...

 

I have pictures! Went in and had a good chat with them. They did not know the REF (bit of a worrying sign, to me, from a watch dealer, but they claimed the expert is away).

The dial is in excellent shape, minus a chip on the “23”. Not sure if - given it’s a different dial to others - this will help with figuring out the reference.

Bigger concern is I noticed that the top lugs are narrower-set, and in fact the left-hand top lug is skewed. Clearly was reattached at some point, and looks like there’s a stress crack on the inside seam!

It’s a beautiful watch, but I’m concerned by the lugs. I even forced them to bring the calipers out so I could prove it! Good 0.5mm difference at the widest point and 1.1 at the narrowest (the roots of the lugs).

Any thoughts? Thanks Cristos for replying so fast! I have put the purchase on hold while they figure out what to do about the lug, they won’t reopen til the second so I’ve got plenty of time to figure it out.

Merry Christmas all!

 

I am not a specialist but I am afraid the dial has been repainted.

 

Comparing the lugs at 5 o'clock and 1 o'clock I don't like the differcence.
The one at 1 o'clock looks as if it has been resoldered.
And the one at 11 o'clock has a "funny" crack
I also have a feeling that the crown isn't original.
And do you really want the weekdays in that language, whatever it is? (month looks like German but days ???)

 

Look at the alignment of the painted hour markers and the applied markers. Some of them are badly offset. Some are touching (7 and 8 o'clock) while others have a big gap between the end of the painted marker and the applied marker (1 and 2 o'clock). You don't need to be an expert about printing subtleties (e.g. flat "A") to notice these issues, just observe alignment and symmetry.

I suppose someone may follow up by saying that dials weren't always printed perfectly, in which case I will add that I don't want to pay 7,000 GBP for an uneven, poorly painted dial, original or not. It would bother me every time I looked at it.

 

yes it's quite common for these old models to have slightly misaligned printing in relation to the applied markers. seen it quite a bit. I guess it's a matter of how much the flaws bother one. I learned long ago not to constantly loupe old pieces as the more one does it the more one notices the nuances

 

Same as Dan, I also noticed that the minute hashes aren't symmetrical to the hour markers all the way around. Nor is it only in one place (potentially happens if one of the markers is misaligned) but here it looks like the print was shifted up and to the right... so all of the markers are touching on the left/bottom half and are not connected on the top/right. That coupled with a broken lug... that seems to be a problematic watch.

Again, as I am not familiar with the reference, I dont know its cost, but from others, it appears that 7000 GBP is a lot... add the redial and the lug... and it appears to be way over priced.

 

Are you saying you are not interested in noticing "the nuance" of a redial?

Edit: just to be clear, I dont think a redialed watch is worthless... I just think that if it is one, its important that the buyer knows and the price reflects it accordingly. Then the buyer can decide if they are ok with the loss of originality while saving on the cost.

 

I said no such thing. I was referring to the second watch posted as that also has obvious slight misalignment of print in relation to applied markers. some old watches have slight nuances to their dials. it is what it is.

 

I think the redialer had good intentions but overdid it a bit with the serif font of "Omega"

 

The day of the week was puzzling to me. My only thought was maybe the watch made a distinction for 3rd Friday of December in Portuguese possibly? I don't own any triple calendars so I'm not sure if that's possible.

 

Here is mine for what it’s worth. I paid 2800 USD.

 

The blue 1's are off compared to the two examples shown. The examples have the "l" shaped ones and your dial has ones like this "1". There is also slight variations in the ones shape. I'm not an expert on dial printing issues, but another thing to consider.

 

I see... I read your statement originally in reference to the watch OP had posted. However, I do agree with you that watches will have small imperfections, especially ones that have been around a few decades and begin to slowly degrade.

But in this case, it looks like a redial and not degradation of a correct watch. Both effect value, but in this case I think a redial may have a more of an effect on the price than the degradation that may have happened. Unless the dial would have been totally destroyed and ugly looking.

 

I also thought that the comment referred to the OP watch.

 

Massively helpful replies from all of you! I was so focused on the lugs that I didn’t notice the applied vs painted differences - and to split the differences in opinions, I’d guess that on a vintage watch one might always expect some irregularities but the consistency of the irregularity in this case suggests a redo, especially when combined with other details - gatorcpa, glad you pointed out the date pointer, I had wondered whether it should be the blue foliate as opposed to a black arrow... The “I” vs “1” is also a very big spot, and altogether I’m ready to be convinced that the watch is re-dialed.

I’m also in agreement that the 1 and 5 lugs are in the wrong positions relative to one another, let alone the 11 - the calipers and some judicious work with a phone-app-spirit-level suggested that.

All in all, a beautiful watch but not likely an original one, and massively overpriced even if it were perfect is I think the conclusion here! I’m normally a classic car guy so this is a first watch forum for me, but always heart warming to see such a level of knowledge and passion, as in the car forums.

To echo those above, merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night - I shall be keeping an eye out for a good Cosmic Moonphase Triple Date from now on, as they’re undeniably gorgeous, but I think this one needs to learn some humility...

Cheers,
Jack

 

Ps. In Portuguese, and Brazilian Portuguese, as this watch is apparently set for, those who pointed out that Tuesday is the third day are indeed correct - the days run 2a (Monday) to 6a (Friday)f, then SAB and DOM.