Forums Latest Members
  1. masteroftime Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    459
    Likes
    450
    Hi all,

    Late last week I purchased my first Constellation with "Pie Pan" dial and just had the opportunity to pick up the package from my post office. At first look, the watch looked to me to be relatively original, but in overly polished condition. At under $700 it seemed to be a relative bargain. After looking through some of the threads in this forum and reviewing Desmond's writeup, I started to notice a few red flags and became worried that the case may be a counterfeit.

    I had purchased this watch from a local auction house that specializes in horology and they mentioned that it had an original case and an "expertly refinished dial". To me, the dial was not a huge deal breaker because it looked clean and presentable. It also seemed to me that most of the dials on these watches don't survive the test of time all too well. I noticed that the casebook reference number read 167.005, which would be incorrect for this model, but I just assumed that the casebook had been switched at some point.

    Before reaching back out to the seller, I'd love to get your thoughts.

    - Does the case look correct? It seems to be missing the chamfering on the lug edge, but I had figured it may have been polished out. Also the faceting on the bottom of the lug that Desmond described as beginning "at the point of where the lug is attached to the case" instead seems to begin midway through the case.

    - Is it at all common/possible for the lug holes to ever be drilled incorrectly? When removing the band, I did notice that both sets of spring bar holes don't sit directly across from each other. I tried to show this in an attached photo, but one of the holes on each side seems to sit far too close to the edge of the lug and causes the springboard to attach a little crooked.

    Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. I had never realized that these watches were commonly faked. Please let me know if I should take any more photos. Thank You!

    front.jpg

    img.axd-28.jpeg
    img.axd-29.jpeg
    img.axd-30.jpeg
    img.axd-27.jpeg movement photo blk.jpg connie lugs.jpeg
     
    img.axd-27.jpeg
    Edited Jun 26, 2020
  2. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    12,168
    Likes
    15,625
    Dial is a fake. Case back may be genuine, but for wrong reference as Ref. 167.005 is for a non-calendar cal. 551 movement.

    Mid-case may or may not be original, but the issues with lug holes don’t give me the warm and fuzzies.

    If you bought on eBay, you may have recourse for a refund.

    Really, the time to ask is before you make a purchase.
    gatorcpa
     
  3. TexOmega Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    7,259
    Likes
    54,175
    Can you return it?


    Not expertly repainted for one MAJOR reason. And there are many/alot of excellent dials. And no, Omega was tops, so the holes should be perfect.

    Case appears wonky to me with these pix.
     
    masteroftime likes this.
  4. X350 XJR Vintage Omega Aficionado Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    12,426
    Likes
    29,481
    More likely than not the whole thing if a fake, dial for sure and the case doesn't look right either, those stars are way too lumpy.
     
    Peemacgee and masteroftime like this.
  5. SkunkPrince Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    5,636
    Likes
    5,737
    What do you think of the lettering on the rotor?
     
    masteroftime likes this.
  6. X350 XJR Vintage Omega Aficionado Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    12,426
    Likes
    29,481
    The movement is genuine.
     
    masteroftime and airansun like this.
  7. SkunkPrince Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    5,636
    Likes
    5,737
    I thought so too but the lettering on the rotor looks a little uneven. Maybe they're all that way and I'm just looking for something that isn't there. :D
     
    masteroftime likes this.
  8. masteroftime Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    459
    Likes
    450
    I appreciate the insight and I will definitely do so next time! Any way to differentiate a repainted dial vs a fake dial?
     
  9. masteroftime Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    459
    Likes
    450
    Fortunately, I can still return it if it isn't as described/represented. This is one of the reasons I was asking/concerned about the originality of the case. Is the "MAJOR" reason MOY alignment?
     
  10. SkunkPrince Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    5,636
    Likes
    5,737
    I would like to know as well. I would have identified that as likely genuine, myself.
     
    masteroftime likes this.
  11. masteroftime Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    459
    Likes
    450
    Is the dial at least a decent refinish?
     
  12. SkunkPrince Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    5,636
    Likes
    5,737
    masteroftime likes this.
  13. killer67 Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    1,443
    Likes
    2,425
    Classic fake: MOY test fails, i in "Constellation" is not dotted, "Constellation" is too big, incorrectly spaced and poorly scripted (note the lack of serif on the "s"), double T dial would indicate a presence of lume, wrong curvature/facets on the date window, black in the middle of indices are likely painted, onyx insert dials usually do not have a printed minute marker on the hour index, hands would likely have a matching onyx insert (to the indices)
     
    masteroftime, MtV and Passover like this.
  14. killer67 Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    1,443
    Likes
    2,425
    case looks fake. look at the side (outer lugs) of the bezel and the case; there should be one chamfer/facet on each component. OPs bezel/case is smooth. Holes don’t really matter at this point
     
    masteroftime likes this.
  15. X350 XJR Vintage Omega Aficionado Jun 22, 2020

    Posts
    12,426
    Likes
    29,481
    masteroftime likes this.
  16. Peemacgee Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers Jun 23, 2020

    Posts
    5,126
    Likes
    7,834
    Classic fake dial ( not repainted)

    The mid case might be genuine - I’ve just compared it to my SGR dogleg and it’s so very close I wouldn’t like to call it out as a fake - but it is heavily polished.

    The case back is another story.
    It certainly doesn’t belong to the movement.
    The perlaging looks wrong and the medallion looks wrong too - the observatory in particular - and it actually looks applied rather than integral.
    I would suggest this is a fake case back.

    At the very least a mess of a frankenwatch - return it if you can.
     
  17. killer67 Jun 23, 2020

    Posts
    1,443
    Likes
    2,425
    You might be right - it may be polished beyond recognition but I feel like I’ve seen similar fakes. Either way, as you say, the watch has too many issues to keep just for the movement
     
  18. Noddyman Jun 23, 2020

    Posts
    1,116
    Likes
    1,771
    They do it’s just that on some dials the indicies cover the mark.
     
  19. killer67 Jun 23, 2020

    Posts
    1,443
    Likes
    2,425
    just looked - you’re right. Thanks
     
  20. MtV Jun 23, 2020

    Posts
    3,121
    Likes
    11,973
    Hope it’s ok to post that here, it helped me a lot and might not be known to everybody: So the first 3 digits of the ref give you information about the watch. Here’s the chart:

    2DF0A5AE-65E1-43A9-97D3-0129583DC42F.jpeg
    In this example (168):
    1: Gent’s watch, check.
    6: Self-winding center second, check.
    7: (water resistant) Chronometer, no calendar: fail. That’s what X350 refers to, the watch has a date, so it has to be an 8 here.