Hi Everyone,

Went home to visit the family and ended up with some heirloom pocket watches from my Great Grandfather. The one in question is a Charles Taylor & Son pocket watch from London. I’m a newbie when it comes to Pocket Watches, I was curious if anyone has any info on the company / specific style of this one... see images for more info.

On a side note, I manually winded it up with the included key and it is ticking like a champ!

18 Kt Gold / Case # 12629

Best,

Phil

 

Perhaps @Canuck has some insight?

Looks great. Fantastic heirloom to have! Do you know how he came to own it?

 

Unfortunately, I do not have the full story. Very little is known about the entire pocket watch collection, but I want to get a clearer understanding of the time period of this watch and movement details. I might have to contact an antique appraiser to get a better idea.

 

Sounds like the WIS's of a century ago kept watch collections secret from wives.
Nice heirloom.

 

Ha! Probably was!

 

There are several markings in the case back that confuse me, rather than to help me conclude anything about the case. The stamping on the lower right appears to me to be the hallmark for the London assay office. But if that stamping is a lion, it is unlike any lion hallmark I have ever seen, for London. The standard mark for English 18-karat goods is a lion passant. There is no such stamping in the case back. The stamping on the lower left I was scrutinizing, hoping to identify a date letter. That stamping is not a date letter in my opinion. The18 stamping with the crown indicates 18- karat gold. There are two letters high up that are likely a case maker’s trade mark. I think I see an S, but am unable to identify the other letter. If the case is of English make, that symbol might help identify the case maker.

Bailie lists numerous watch makers by the name Charles Taylor. Several from the 17th century, several from the 18th century, and several from the early 19th century. I believe the subject watch is no older than circa 1875, and no Charles Taylor is listed in Baillie, after 1817.

Loomes lists a Charles Taylor and Son in London, circa 1851-1881. That is likely the maker. Loomes also lists two Charles Taylors in London, 1831 and 1879. The Taylor & Son is most likely the maker.

The movement appears to be a Lancashire make, jewelled, (7 or 9 jewels?), including a diamond end stone on the balance cock. English lever escapement, fusee (chain drive), and was a quality movement for its time.

Clear as mud, I know. Perhaps our English brethren might be able to add to this.

 

I think that the right hand mark is the London Leopards head, middle is the 18k gold standard, the right hand side seems to be a dog? [can't see the relevance?] Beautiful watch....
Maker, some details here

 

Those marks aren't English. The one to the right might possibly be a worn leopard's head but I'm not convinced. If it was a foreign case that was imported, one would expect a London import mark. The S-B is similar to Samuel Beaumont - a Coventry based case maker - but that mark wasn't registered until 1891 anyway, so it's unlikely to be him. The caseback decoration isn't English either. I strongly suspect this is a continental case.

 

The left mark looks like a horse head to me.

 

Bear, wolf or dog, I would say.

 

Many thanks for taking the time to review the pictures and provide your analysis! Especially, the movement details... I was having a hard time finding anything doing online/desk research. Thank you!

 

Thank you for the additional info!

 

Ha, can I add to your list... Sea Serpent or Loch Ness haha

 

Is there a scenario, where the movement was placed in a different caseback? Based on your suspicions?

 

I can't think of any reason outside of an original case being damaged beyond repair while the movement was still working (very, very unlikely).

If the case was Swiss, that mark on the left would be a squirrel - I don't see that, no matter how worn. I wondered if it was Dutch or Danish but, again, the marks don't make sense. Maybe @Syrte could comment on whether it's French?

What I will say is that looking at the buildings in the decoration, I would expect the case to be the low countries or maybe Scandinavia?

Best guess, I'm afraid.

I'm sure if you search European gold marks and just check "images" , you'll find a match. I thought one might be Danish but came up dry. The Swiss used animal heads and such but they don't match either. Perhaps @Syrte could say if they're French or not.

 

Thanks for the quick reply! I’ll start some desk research later today and see what I find.

 

I've done a bit more research and emailed a question to a guy in UK who runs a watch strap based website. He also seems quite knowledgeable about hallmarks. I hope the OP doesn't mind, but I sent him the picture of the marks. Here's his reply:
Hi Geoff,

The image is not very good but those are fake hallmarks, seehttp://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/fakehallmarks.php#fake18carat. If you can manage a better image I would like to see it.

Regards David
have a look at the link and you will see a very similar image to the one posted here
Hope that helps a little, or maybe not?

 

Ha! Ughhhh, the truth hurts... thanks for going the extra mile and getting an answer for me. Well, at the very least it’s still an interesting piece for the collection.

 

That would be good enough for me. If DB thinks they're fakes then it only makes my belief that fakes have been around for much longer than most of us think.

(I'm talking about a fake gold case here, not the movement).

 

Yes, the case is fake... I guess jury is still out on the movement. But that appears to be legit.