Hello everybody,

I am a total ignorant regarding the Longines world and I am looking for some information on the caliber of this pocket watch I have recently bought at an auction in France.

It is a chronograph with serial n° 647288, which would date it from around 1890 according to information I found on the web, but as I am not a Longines specialist, I may be wrong.
There is nothing technical I can say on it which will not be obvious looking at the pictures (snail regulator, column wheel...).
It is in working order in need of a good service. I haven't disassembled it, even not taken the dial off, so I don't know how the dial side of the plate looks like or if it has some insciptions. I would do it on an Omega, which I'm familiar with, but am very relunctant to do it on this one cause I would probably damage it.

The case is gunmetal and bronze. It has the same serial as the caliber. I found the hands style unusual for a chronograph but I don't know if it is original (I would say it could be, looking at the central chrono second hand). I will be happy to answer all questions.

I tried to find examples of similar calibers, without success. I have also recently requested an EoA from Longines and will post more infos when I receive it.

Any information you coud provide me with on this watch will be welcome.

A couple of clarifications : I am a collector of Omega watches, but bought this watch because I like it, as I have already done for other non Omega ones. It is now part of my collection and not for sale. For the same reason, I am not looking for a valuation.

Here are the pictures :

 

Damn, that is a beauty! Congrats!

 

Needless to say, you have a very special watch. I especially love the curve-y chrono seconds hand. The movement seems to be a higher grade variant, with more jewels than usually see in these and the snail regulator.

I believe this is a caliber 19 CH, which I read came into the market is 1889.

I quote from one of the websites below: "The chronograph based on the LUGRIN patent was probably the first chronograph by LONGINES and was launched in 1878. This caliber 20 H can be found with serial numbers between approx. 164,000 and 182,000 and the sales books have not yet been quantitatively evaluated - there are probably only a few thousand of these pieces. This model initially had no successor and from the 1880s onwards you can occasionally find AGASSIZ chronographs with LONGINES signatures. After the 20 H, the caliber 19 CH came onto the market in 1889. The following chronograph seems to be an intermediate construction, it is not presented at all by Longines."

References:

http://www.pocketwatch.ch/klongines.htm
https://hans-weil.faszination-uhrwerk.de/Longines/longines.html
http://www.chronoguide-taschenuhren.com/chronograf.htm

 

Thank you for sharing this wonderful watch.

Unfortunately, I do not have much information to add. As @Modest_Proposal wrote, the movement is a caliber 19CH, which was Longines' second chronograph movement. As shown above, there are two variants of the movement. Both are based on the time-only caliber 19A. This information comes from Patrick Linder's book on Longines, entitled "At the Heart of an Industrial Vocation".

As for your example, the condition is fantastic. Though I do not recall seeing another example with the same handset, the style looks appropriate for the era. The enamel dial is lovely, with red numbers for the chronograph minute counter and outer scale. I agree with your estimate of circa 1890 as the production or original invoice date. I suppose that the watch was originally sold in France, given the "M" by the stem.

Admittedly, I do not entirely understand how these chronograph movements work. I think that they use some sort of vertical clutch, rather than a horizontal clutch. I wonder if the chronograph is engaged/disengaged via a lever (red arrow) that acts on a vertical pin (green arrow), which is attached to a hidden lever (part number 506, Linder) that extends to the driving wheel (blue lever). In its current position (reset), the tooth of the lever is between columns on the column wheel. Starting the chronograph would cause the lever to pivot down and right, which would presumably move the pin and hidden lever away from the driving wheel.

Anyway, it is a fascinating and uncommon watch. Examples of Longines' first chronograph, the 20H, seem to be more common than examples of the 19CH.

 

Thanks a lot for your precious information. I will study it in details (I regret not having been more ettentive during my German lessons!) but it already helps me a lot to understand what this watch is. I am very happy to have it in my collection.

 

Thanks for your feedback. I certainly understand less than you how this works but having observed it I think you are right with the lever pressing down the pin, operating the chrono.
If I receive an Extract of Archives from Longines, I will be able to know to which country it was sold, but, with the M for metal case, together with the fact that I bought it in France, seem to back your suggestion that it could have been to France.

 

Here is another example (movement photo only) with a snail regulator, fewer visible jewels, and blued screws:


https://www.instagram.com/p/B14MCgWoYE_/

 

Found another one on the web (Ebay sale from 2016). Silver case with letter A on the mainplate and 'Avance/Retard' instead of Fast/slow, inside engraved with a name and 'Bordeaux' so French market :

 

Good find! I am adding the serial number (691'457) for posterity. It is neat that this example has beveled springs and levers.

 

Very nice!

 

Gorgeous!

 

I always knew, that you are a thorough and knowledgeable collector. Now you have moved up quite a few steps ... Chapeau, as a non french speaker would say.

 

Judging by one of the ultra-thin springs near the balance wheel, I would guess that these have instantaneous minute counters?

 

That is high praise, thank you.

I suppose that depends on how you define an instantaneous minute counter. Sometimes the term is used to describe minute counters that advance semi-instantaneously (about 1 second) via a sliding wheel. To me, the 19CH looks to have this design, with the typical sliding wheel (red arrow), minute recording wheel (green arrow), and jumper spring (blue arrow). This design is in contrast to the instantaneous minute counter on Longines' next chronograph caliber, the 19.73. This design has no sliding wheel. Instead, the minute recording wheel is advanced instantaneously (fraction of a second) by an elaborate lever system (red arrow). The example shown below is a caliber 19.73N, which uses the same lever system as the caliber 19.73.




https://www.ebay.de/itm/264568918205Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

 

Yes, I meant the "lesser" jump counter.

The caliber 19.73 is identical or similar in method as their caliber 13.33 wristwatch chronographs.

 

I am speechless to see you buy something that’s not Omega.
Of course I can’t blame you, congrats

 

I couldn’t let this one go…
Tried hard but couldn’t resist!

 

That is absolutely superb

 

I was looking at the movement again, and now I wonder if P acts on 2 instead of 1. I have two reasons for this. Firstly, the way in which L acts on P seems more in line with 2 than with 1. Secondly, there is a spring above 2 that could be used to influence its vertical motion. No such spring is visible around 1. So, my new theory is as follows:

1. Starting the chronograph causes L to move P away from 2.
2. The spring is then able to push 2 down in order to couple with 1.
3. The rotation of 2 causes A to rotate since 2 and A are permanently coupled.



I suspect that A and B are permanently coupled given the size and profile of their teeth. This could mean that 2 can move vertically, independent of A. I think that this is possible if the two are coupled via the pin that is visible above the end of the spring. Another possibility is that A and B remain coupled despite some vertical movement of A. Looking at the example below, this seems to be what is going on. Notably, this example differs from @Tire-comedon's example, and is yet another variant of the caliber 19CH.

This example is in its stopped position, I would guess. The reset hammer is not acting on the heart cams, and L is in between columns on the column wheel, which was the case when the example above was in its reset position (decoupled). One can see that the height of A (different from the example above) is greater than that of B. I assume that this is so that A can move vertically while remaining coupled with B. A looks to be in its up position (decoupled).