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Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Canuck
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J johan gardin
This watch, found in a box belonging to my grandfather (1890-1946), is, if not a railroad watch, at least a bit of a train wreck. The case is bashed, the face is defaced, all hands are lost at sea and the movement is anonymous. The case is marked 'H VI', 'IL 629' and very faintly scratched 'H f v' in handwriting.

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Your pictures seem to indicate that it is not only the hands that are missing. Balance wheel, hairspring, balance cock, and possibly other items don’t show. It would be difficult/impossible to find someone who could fabricate the missing parts. And if you were to find someone, you wouldn’t be prepared to spend what it would take, I suspect. Treasure it, but leave it as is would be my suggestion.
 
J
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
Hi Johan,

This watch was/is a Swiss or French verge and presumably made around 1800 - 1820. These had nothing to do with railroad for obvious reasons considering when it was made.

Regarding maker signatures, did you look inside the movement on the lower plate and near the contrate wheel? Sometimes the makers provided (tiny) signatures there, see this example, wherein the "main" signature is by a retailer, while the actual maker becomes evident by the arrow (H. Raiguel Jne, the origin of Longines).

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Hi Bernhard, thanks! I am very surprised and also regretful that I didn't get a chance to ask my grandmother or mother about the watches.
I can only find a 'I3' mark on the movement, nothing else.

Brgds Johan

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J
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Canuck Canuck
Your pictures seem to indicate that it is not only the hands that are missing. Balance wheel, hairspring, balance cock, and possibly other items don’t show. It would be difficult/impossible to find someone who could fabricate the missing parts. And if you were to find someone, you wouldn’t be prepared to spend what it would take, I suspect. Treasure it, but leave it as is would be my suggestion.
Hi, thanks! I fully agree that 'restoring' it would be daunting and also a bit pointless, since I have no provenance other than grandpa (whom I never met and who didn't seem inclined to do something either).
Brgds Johan
 
Pastorbottle
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That's looking a bit second hand, even though it no longer has a second hand, which in itself is a remarkable achievement!
 
J
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Pastorbottle Pastorbottle
That's looking a bit second hand, even though it no longer has a second hand, which in itself is a remarkable achievement!
Well said Sir and indeed it may never have possessed enough hands to match the line of succession. And why it still exists in this condition (apparently not recently bashed) is something to think about.
 
DaveK
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TexOmega TexOmega
Elgin grade 616 17j circa 1951
5 adjustments( probably only 3 positions plus isochronism and temperature) and Pendant Set, so not RR grade but perfect for bus/trolly/streetcar or a solid pw at a lower price point.

Same family of movements as the 571 BW Raymond RR grade, but at the bottom of the family.

The stylized dp is for their DuroPower mainspring, marketed as unbreakable.

Montgomery single sunk numeric dial.

Elgin’s last USA made 16s pw. The slide starts…..

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There’s an inter-urban museum in Steveston, a fishing village not far from me. I just finished the book “The Sockeye Special” (sockeye being a type of salmon) about the trolly that ran between Vancouver and Steveston. Horse racing special trains, news years Eve trains, the workers and the tourists and local teenagers on the trains. Lots of history and stories on the trolly trains, if only we knew who first owned these watches and what routes they ran on.
 
Canuck
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DaveK DaveK
Nice to see this collection of CDN-dialed watches. That Howard has a gorgeous layout
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One of my favourite Keystone Howard dials is the 12-hour dial on my Keystone Howard series 11. The series 11 is not considered a prime collectible among Howard collectors because the movement design was based on a New York Standard design. Keystone owned NYS who was a maker of cheap(er) watches, but the series 11 is a serious railroad standard watch. I don’t recall ever having seen a series11 with any other dial. I like it!

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ghce
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Thought I might share this one.
Presented to a Railway Engineer (driver ) on his retirement in 1937, he subsequently died less than a year later.
The only service mark is about 1 month after the presentation date, there are no others, my guess is that the PW was never touched or used after his death.
The case back and cuvette are a real b@#tch to open, so super tight.
The dial is as new zero sign of wear or interference.
Adjusted to 3 positions it still has an excellent daily rate in those positions with very little beat error and has great amplitude and as you can see the regulator is smack in the middle, Waltham knew how to build great reliable watches!

When I bought it at an online auction, same as eBay, it had been cycled thru about 6 or 7 times, the seller photos were really quite poor but after watching it for a couple of months of auction cycles I decided I would take a punt and by this time the price was right as the price had been dropped. Super glad I took a punt, this sort of stuff in this condition is very rare!

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Canuck
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Dennison gold filled cases came in three grades. SUN grade, 25 years, MOON grade, 20 years, and STAR grade, 10 years. The case on the subject watch indicate it is a MOON grade, and it is marked 20 years. Aaron Lufkin Dennison was an American who was the agent for Waltham in Britain. So Waltham movements in English (Dennison) cases are seen very often. I suspect the grade name ROYAL on the movement referred to Royal Robbins who was the white knight that appeared on the scene when Waltham was struggling. Robbins took the company from the outhouse to the penthouse. Whether the movement in the subject watch would have been considered railroad grade would depend on time standards that prevailed at the time.

I have an 1877 model, 18-size, Waltham pocket watch with the movement marked R E Robbins (same white knight). This one was produced for the domestic market in the U S, and is in a Dueber case, made in the U S.

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DaveK
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Canuck Canuck
My Elgin B W Raymond grade 571, 21-jewels, 8 adjustments. Vitreous enamel dial. These B W Raymonds had a tendency to have the lever set components fail. This happened with mine, soon after I bought it. This was before internet searching for parts was available, and my usual sources were unable to supply parts. The now defunct S LaRose company made available all the parts necessary to convert the watch to stem set by using genuine parts from other Elgin grades. So this one is now a stem set. Come to think of it, I don’t recall ever having worn this watch. At one time, I had a very much nicer grade 571, but foolishly, I sold it! This one is from 1949. Here is the pocketwatchdatabase info on it.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/V532415

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It would actually be quite handy to have a stem set daily wearer
 
Bernhard J
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
Here an American private label watch, signed A.G. Wiseman, St. Louis.
Here are a few better photos of the movement. And a closeup of the gold mark. That looks similar to an English gold mark, but it is different in detail. Does anyone know it and can perhaps assign it to a specific American case maker?

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Canuck
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If the “crown” in your image is in fact a trade mark of the case maker, it is different to every crown trade mark I have found in either Warren Niebling’s book on U S case maker trade marks, or in a copy of the Shugart, Engel, & Gilbert “bible”. A “crown” of some description or other shows up in many trade marks, but none match your crown.
 
Bernhard J
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I do not think that it is a trade mark, but rather is intended to characterise the case material. In another forum (German) someone meant to have seen identical marks in several American gold cases, but unfortunately without specifying this statement or giving any examples.
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Canuck
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Precious metals marking laws in North America (including Canada) evolved over the decades. Records exist that during the 19th century, gold filled cases exist that were stamped with karat gold marks! Trade mark/precious metals marking laws were still in a state of flux, even as late as the latter years of the 19th century. The movement in the subject watch looks Swiss to me, not of American make. Thereby, the case could well be Swiss as well.

With the possibility that the case may be of Swiss origin, I have included a link to Swiss standard marks for karat gold cases. Lots of good information, but no help nailing down the marks in the case of the subject watch.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/swisshallmarks.php
 
Bernhard J
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The movement clearly is Swiss made, the so-called "Jürgensen type", produced by several high grad manufacturers. The case does not seem to be Swiss, but American rather. The mark in question is not a continental European mark, see for a list for various eras and places: https://watch-wiki.org/index.php?title=Kontrollstempel.

It looks similar to e.g. this English mark, but misses all other marks, assay office, date letter, etc., so that I would exclude English marking.

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