Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Canuck · Jul 16, 2024

ghce
Could be decent movement under the cover that given it's a solid gold case.
You want to get your thumbnail under the back cover ( curvette ) and see what magic is revealed.

Interesting that the case is stamped .625 (15 karat)! A German or Scandinavian made case? Likely contains a 15 or 17 jewel, 1899 model, 16-size movement.

TexOmega · Jul 16, 2024

This one defines the word RARE in US RR grade pocket watch collecting.

Elgin made this for Ball Watch Co. circa 1904.

18s HUNTER CASED Official RR movement, 17j Serial 11958018, so #18 of Elgin's production

Elgin name: 333 and Elgin grade: 329
Ball model name: 333

From IHC185 posted by their distinguished President/collector/founder, Lindell Riddle:
"About those number designations...Ball considered all of the Ball-Elgin Official RR Standards to be their model "333" and had the movements marked as such. But, here's the sticking point, Elgin only considered the Ball-Elgin 17-Jewel Open-Face to be the 333 and assigned 334 to the Open-Face 21-Jewel examples. On the Hunters Elgin used 329 for the 17-Jewel and 330 for the 21-Jewel Hunters. Why they chose to do something so confusing is hard for us to understand today, but not really all that unusual."

later, he states:

"Ball collectors tend to feel there were probably no more than 200 of the 17-Jewel Hunters like Jim's watch produced, although 1,000 numbers were blocked. On the 21-Jewel Hunter only the first number of the 1,000 blocked which is 11959001 has been reported and accounted for at this time. (Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer in the Bulletin, page 481, August 2002) Based upon that scenario although 1,000 numbers were also blocked for the 21-Jewel Hunter it is certainly reasonable to speculate that perhaps as few as 10 of those may have actually been produced. (OR, COULD IT BE THERE WAS ONLY ONE??? OR NONE, I WANT TO SEE A PICTURE of the 11959001 MOVEMENT!) We really do not know how many Ball-Elgin Hunters were actually produced and quite probably never we never will. But this is why we keep data-bases and record all the numbers we can for these hard to find watches.

You will notice I used the term "guesstimates" which is my way of saying GUESS + ESTIMATE = GUESSTIMATE and in watch collecting as in many other collectibles there are guesses and estimates far too often (erroneously) stated as being facts."

Poctetwatch Database states only 6 have run through their serial number "look-up"

Why RARE?

Webb C. Ball hated Hunter movements as much as he hated double sunk dials for his RR grade watches, but a few Hunter watches trickled out of his factory. And the 17j variety is rare in numbers with the 21j Hunter still unknown/unseen.

ghce · Jul 17, 2024

Due to the conflicting information on the PWDB site I decided that there must be better info on my latest acquisition and luckily there is, a whole website just for Seth Thomas PW's. https://seththomasresearch.com/model-3 and for lookup https://seththomasresearch.com/lookup
Whilst it doesnt tell me all that can be known it does clarify in a no nonsense way that there is a lot that is not known about production and that the rarity and production day to day logistics most likely mean that no one can ever know definitively what a PW specs are except in the broadest sense.
Glad I found this site so I am happy to share it with all the other PW fans here.

Pastorbottle · Jul 17, 2024

I had a look at the movement of my mate's missus's grand dad's watch. a few posts previous.
it has a rather pretty movement but it doesn't say how many jewels.
the case is by Dennison.
Unfortunately we had visited a local distillery before I looked at the watch so the pix turned out worse than the last lot!

You can't see the lovely engine turning......just as well I'm going back home to Melbourne tomorrow, I need a break from having a break!

Canuck · Jul 17, 2024

Pastorbottle
I had a look at the movement of my mate's missus's grand dad's watch. a few posts previous.
it has a rather pretty movement but it doesn't say how many jewels.
the case is by Dennison.
Unfortunately we had visited a local distillery before I looked at the watch so the pix turned out worse than the last lot!

You can't see the lovely engine turning......just as well I'm going back home to Melbourne tomorrow, I need a break from having a break!

That movement is an 1899 model, 16-size (it would appear), with 7 jewels. Your picture is awful, and I am unable to read the S#.

Pastorbottle · Jul 17, 2024

Canuck
That movement is an 1899 model, 16-size (it would appear), with 7 jewels. Your picture is awful, and I am unable to read the S#.

2 blokes that've been at the distillery all afternoon are not likely to be taking great pix!
If you think that pic is bad.......lucky you didn't see the rest!
Would you expect these two old piss wrecks to be in a fit state to take pix?

Canuck · Jul 17, 2024

Pastorbottle
2 blokes that've been at the distillery all afternoon are not likely to be taking great pix!
If you think that pic is bad.......lucky you didn't see the rest!

Try posting pictures which will help in identifying the watch, rather than pictures that give rise to multiple other questions! 😉

DaveK · Jul 17, 2024

Pastorbottle
…I need a break from having a break!

Reminds me of Spirit of the West’s great anthem

pdxleaf · Jul 18, 2024

I just discovered salesman pocket watches. The clear back is intriguing as a major appeal of PWs is the beautiful movement. But a cursory search of prices makes me think salesman watches are cheaper. Cheaper generally means less liked, which I don't quite understand.

What are your thoughts about salesman pocket watches?

(I didn't see this in the archives so apologize if its been discussed.)

Canuck · Jul 18, 2024

I don’t have an example of one of these. I have friends who do have examples. I would be interested if I was to find an American made, medium to high grade movement, in a salesman’s sample case which was factory marked with the watch maker’s name. Allow for the fact that rarely, did the maker of the movement, also make cases. Once in a while, one of these cases will come up for sale. But I am not in the market.

ghce · Jul 19, 2024

Well my Cyrus Nelson Gibbs Private label Seth Thomas arrived in this morning and I am happy to say it looks to be the only known example of it in the world, so full marks for rarity!
It is not ticking but is complete and there is nothing to suggest that all that is required is nothing other than a service to make it fully functional again.

DaveK · Jul 19, 2024

pdxleaf
I just discovered salesman pocket watches. The clear back is intriguing as a major appeal of PWs is the beautiful movement. But a cursory search of prices makes me think salesman watches are cheaper. Cheaper generally means less liked, which I don't quite understand.

What are your thoughts about salesman pocket watches?

(I didn't see this in the archives so apologize if it’s been discussed.)

I would love to have a clear caseback for my daily, heck for all my pocket watches. I’d like to know more about the actual “salesmen” use of them. I think that aftermarket clear casebacks were made by someone for some models. More info is needed. By the time it took me to write this, I now NEED one!

TexOmega · Jul 19, 2024

TexOmega
My Hampden Handful

Railway Special ( or Special Railway)

Dueber-Hampden display cases

23j in Bold numerals circa 1904

21j circa 1900

RR Grade

Look back on a few of my postings and I'll have a few. I liked them for many different models.

Salesman cases were used to show the jewelers in their territory the newest movement without the constant removal of the standard casebook. And, then the jeweler could display in their shop to potential customers for the same reason. They would be relatively cheap compared to a gf case and non-precious.

TexOmega · Jul 19, 2024

Then, there was a second salesman case style, more compact.

this one was for Ball Watch Co. Cleveland

TexOmega · Jul 19, 2024

Who would want to hide this Hamilton 990?

TexOmega · Jul 19, 2024

And the owner before me had a special case back made and who could argue with that decision?

Hamilton 946

Canuck · Jul 19, 2024

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/seth-thomas/67026

Canuck · Jul 19, 2024

This is not a “salesman’s” display case, but since @TexOmega showed a movement storage case, I’ll show one as well.

pdxleaf · Jul 19, 2024

More pocket watch newbie questions.

What's this number on the case edge identify? It's different than the case number. (It matches the final numbers elsewhere.)

The case number appears in two places. It's the same number. It seems redundant to put the same number twice. Do these ever differ?

Longines movements baffle me. In attempting to find the same one, I see multiple little differences. Bridges flipped, couple extra screws. I'll find one that is close but then has something a little different. Is there a Longines movement catalog available?

Besides the watchmakers here, do other people get your PWs serviced? Some watches, all watches, none? Mine is quite dirty, but I imagine it can get expensive to service a big collection of PWs.

My PW has an unmarked dial, so I assume it was ordered piecemeal and put together with a Longines movement? Looks like a 1904 movement.

TexOmega · Jul 19, 2024

The case numbers should match so a jobber/jeweler/WM could order a repair part(back/dust cover/front cover) and more importantly, the factory could marry them to a run of movements internally.

Yes, over the years, I(via a WM) service alot, but by no means all, of my PW's.

Dials are tricky.....most(almost all I've seen) here in US had a manufacture's name or a private jewelers name.