Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Canuck · Sep 21, 2021

Canuck
About 20 years ago, a fellow brought me the subject watch for an estimate for repair. The movement is only a 7-jewel model. When I quote on a 7 jewel watch, I quote a higher price than I do for watches with 15, 17, 19 jewels, or more. I usually have to contend with worn bearings on 7-jewel models. He declined the repair, and never picked it up! I took a look at it on Sunday, and decided it had possibilities. I’m sure it hasn’t been worked on after it left Elgin in 1919, or so. It had likely been lubed with whale oil! I could not believe how it was gummed up. It was difficult to take the movement apart. I had to peg the bearings, scrub it with Mr. Clean solution and water, rinse it, dry it thoroughly, and clean it again, in L & R Extra Fine cleaner. Even at that, I had to glass brush the congealed oil off the bearings, and re-clean it. Turned out nice!

The case is a 10 year gold filled case. The style is called a Demi hunter (half hunter), and the numerals are translucent blue vitreous enamel. The enamel is not damaged, and that is unusual! The movement is Elgin. The inner cuvette indicates it was a presentation to the secretary of a union in Newtownards, County Cork, Ireland, in 1920. The hour hand is a “double spade” style, typical of a Demi-hunter, allowing the time to be read without opening the front cover.

Well, it has been returned to the family of the original owner. The watch was presented on September 27, 1920, as an award. The inner cuvette was engraved with all the details, and his name. He never used it. It was left to his son, same name, and he never used it. He, in turn, left it to his son, same name, and he never used it. To day, the great grandson of the original owner picked it up after I serviced it. He has the same name as the three previous owners! The third generation owner is now deceased. It is now in the hands of the fourth generation. The watch is now back in the original owner’s family, 6 days short of the original presentation date, 101 years ago. And to think that the watch was brought to me for repair decades ago, and the (then) owner declined the estimate, and never picked it up! I could have added it to my collection, and the family would have been none the wiser. Strangely, I feel good about letting it go!

Jopi · Sep 22, 2021

Thhis watch is from my fathers collection, I am trying to research it. Claming to be made of one M J Tobias of Liverpool, I´m not so sure it ever been anywhere near this mr Tobias. But I can be wrong. Apparently there are a lot of Swiss made 19th c copies at any case. Still a nice pocket watsh.
If anyone has further information pleas let me know.

JimInOz · Sep 22, 2021

Jopi
Thhis watch is from my fathers collection, I am trying to research it. Claming to be made of one M J Tobias of Liverpool, I´m not so sure it ever been anywhere near this mr Tobias. But I can be wrong. Apparently there are a lot of Swiss made 19th c copies at any case. Still a nice pocket watsh.
If anyone has further information pleas let me know.

Most likely a European "copycat" or fake.
The movement (not the case) should have the makers name if it's English.
The movement is skeletonised in a typical European fashion, the engraving is very "un-English".
The compass in the movement denotes West as "O" (Ouest), not "W" if it was English.

Your suspicions are well founded.

Waltesefalcon · Sep 22, 2021

In your research did you find whether or not this, M J Tobias was a real Liverpool watch maker? It might just be my phone but that escape wheel looks like one for a cylinder escapement. The English watchmakers, especially 19th century ones, really didn't use the cylinder escapement but it was used pretty extensively by Swiss watchmakers.

JimInOz · Sep 22, 2021

Waltesefalcon
In your research did you find whether or not this, M J Tobias was a real Liverpool watch maker? It might just be my phone but that escape wheel looks like one for a cylinder escapement. The English watchmakers, especially 19th century ones, really didn't use the cylinder escapement but it was used pretty extensively by Swiss watchmakers.

👍

Canuck · Sep 22, 2021

Waltesefalcon
In your research did you find whether or not this, M J Tobias was a real Liverpool watch maker? It might just be my phone but that escape wheel looks like one for a cylinder escapement. The English watchmakers, especially 19th century ones, really didn't use the cylinder escapement but it was used pretty extensively by Swiss watchmakers.

The subject watch has a cylinder escapement. The cylinder escapement was a product of the English watch and clock maker, George Graham. But this escapement was not widely used by English watchmakers. In my opinion, the subject watch is of Swiss origin. Having said that, there were several members of the Tobias family who were involved with marketing watches. Some of them marketed imported Swiss made watches! Any stampings inside the case back might provide some clues. Was this one by one of the Tobias family? IMO, a Tobias didn’t make it.

Canuck · Sep 22, 2021

Not a spectacular sample, but unusual. This Hamilton 992B has the two-tone style # 3 case on it. Steel bezel and back, gold filled case ring. It came to me for repair, and among the things it needs is a crystal, so I show it with the bezel on, and off. Pictures taken before I do the work because I don’t know if the customer will want to spend the money. Too bad about the dial damage, because otherwise, it is decent.

Jopi · Sep 22, 2021

JimInOz
Most likely a European "copycat" or fake.
The movement (not the case) should have the makers name if it's English.
The movement is skeletonised in a typical European fashion, the engraving is very "un-English".
The compass in the movement denotes West as "O" (Ouest), not "W" if it was English.

Your suspicions are well founded.

Waltesefalcon
In your research did you find whether or not this, M J Tobias was a real Liverpool watch maker? It might just be my phone but that escape wheel looks like one for a cylinder escapement. The English watchmakers, especially 19th century ones, really didn't use the cylinder escapement but it was used pretty extensively by Swiss watchmakers.

Canuck
The subject watch has a cylinder escapement. The cylinder escapement was a product of the English watch and clock maker, George Graham. But this escapement was not widely used by English watchmakers. In my opinion, the subject watch is of Swiss origin. Having said that, there were several members of the Tobias family who were involved with marketing watches. Some of them marketed imported Swiss made watches! Any stampings inside the case back might provide some clues. Was this one by one of the Tobias family? IMO, a Tobias didn’t make it.

Thank you for the answers. I am pretty sure it is of Swiss orgin. If any later Tobias has been involved I can´t tell. There are no stampings on the case.

Waltesefalcon · Sep 23, 2021

The newest arrival here. A 1911 A. Lincoln grade model 5 Illinois. This one is pretty neat in that it was a loaner watch from the Chickasha, OK Rock Island Depot. Loaner watches were used by most, if not all railroads, and were loaned out to railroad personnel when their own watch was being serviced. This ensured that personnel would never be without a watch that was up to the time keeping standards of the railroad.

The city of Chickasha started off as a railroad town when the Rock Island line built a depot near the crossing of the Washita River in 1892. The current depot building was built in 1910 and is on the national historic registry. At its height this depot had four passenger trains a day coming through and handled all the freight going into Southwest Oklahoma. What makes this watch of special interest to me is that I teach history at Chickasha High School.

Here are some photos of the depot, including an old postcard and then of course the watch. I live the deep plum hands that Illinois often employed.

DaveK · Sep 23, 2021

Loaner # 9, what fun. And the plum hands are dope!

Canuck · Sep 23, 2021

My “go to” reference on Illinois is the “blue book” by Bill Meggers and Roy Ehrhardt. Strangely, that serial number group is not there! This Illinois was made in grade 4, and grade 5, and these grades are the only American made pocket watches that have a hidden crown wheel, showing only the ratchet wheel, and the half-moon click. The Stuart grade Illinois is mentioned, and I have read that Abe Lincoln was his law partner. So how the “blue book” omitted the Abe Lincoln grade is a puzzle. This model was designed by Fred I. Getty, and is named the “Getty “ model. Your A. Lincoln has gold jewel settings, gold balance wheel screws, an the centre, third, and fourth wheel are gold. The pocketwatchdatabase listing says this model was produced with a number of different names.

Edited to correct the spelling of Lincoln’s law partner’s name to Stuart (not Stewart).

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/2342967

JimInOz · Sep 23, 2021

A beautiful design, especially the click 🥰.

@Canuck, what does the crown wheel engage with, another "ratchet" or directly to the barrel?

And are the wheels actually gold? Wouldn't wear be a problem with a soft metal like gold, or is it alloyed with something?

Canuck · Sep 23, 2021

The ratchet wheel is a double-decker. The crown wheel which is under the barrel bridge meshes with the lower decker of the ratchet wheel. As to the gold alloy in the wheels. On occasion, the train wheels are actually brass with a thin layer of karat gold alloy sheet fused onto the top side of the wheel. In other words, the train wheels are not simply electroplated. The strength of gold alloy can be tailored by the base metals that are alloyed with it. It is possible to have very ductile gold alloy for easy handling in jewellery manufacturing, or alloy with the same gold content can be hard and springy. All by varying the base metal content in the alloy. Are these wheels solid alloy, or are they capped. Hard to say.

Erik_H · Sep 23, 2021

My copy of the “blue book” by Bill Meggers and Roy Ehrhardt includes the serial number group 2342001-2343000, stated as verified, 16s LS OF 21j model 5 A.Lincoln.

Canuck · Sep 23, 2021

Erik_H
My copy of the “blue book” by Bill Meggers and Roy Ehrhardt includes the serial number group 2342001-2343000, stated as verified, 16s LS OF 21j model 5 A.Lincoln.

I spent about an hour trying to find that listing. What page is it on please?

Erik_H · Sep 23, 2021

Canuck
I spent about an hour trying to find that listing. What page is it on please?

Page 379.

allwoundup · Sep 24, 2021

I had lunch with a friend yesterday who brought along the lever-set Tiffany Geneve pocket watch pictured below. He is interested in learning more about the watch, which has been in his family for years. I told him I would share the photos with the good people on this thread and see what info can be had. It is my understanding that Tiffany and Patek Philippe were co-located in the same building in Geneve in the mid- to late-1800s, and that PP provided movements for some Tiffany pocket watches over the years. Googling images for Tiffany and PP pocket watches I have thus far been unable to identify a similar movement. Any insights would be most welcomed. Cheers!

Canuck · Sep 24, 2021

Erik_H
Page 379.

I found the listing you refer to, on page 379. But I was looking for information contained in the details listed in 16-size named grades pages. After extensive searching, I have had to conclude the 16-size A. Lincoln grade isn’t represented. The serial number sequence of the subject watch I was unable to find. The style of Illinois movement with hidden crown wheel in grades 4 and 5 is known as the “Getty” model after its designer. And the only reference I could find was that the Getty model was produced in a number of different model names. Peculiar!

Canuck · Sep 24, 2021

Indeed a beautiful watch! But he already knew that! It has many earmarks of a Patek based on my limited knowledge of the brand. But one outstanding feature I see that appears on Patek watches is the“wolf’s-tooth” winding gear highlighted with an arrow. Maybe other can elucidate more.

allwoundup · Sep 24, 2021

Canuck
Indeed a beautiful watch! But he already knew that! It has many earmarks of a Patek based on my limited knowledge of the brand. But one outstanding feature I see that appears on Patek watches is the“wolf’s-tooth” winding gear highlighted with an arrow. Maybe other can elucidate more.

Many thanks for your insights! It is a beautiful watch and in fantastic condition. Any guess as to a range of years for production?