Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

JimInOz · May 25, 2021

Alpha
Sun often shines in Scotland, just don't blink or you may miss it 😉

Jim you must have experienced some sunshine on your travels of Scotland ?

I did indeed. I can't really remember too many days of rain at all.
Actually got sunburnt walking topless from Butt of Lewis Lighthouse back to Port Ness.
😁

JimInOz · May 26, 2021

Back to pocket watches.

An interesting English watch inherited by my Son-in-Law. It's a bit of a basket case but interesting all the same.

A fairly plain plate, made I think by Abbott & Garnett of Farnworth England, going by the stamp.

The side the owner may see if they are curious, is somewhat prettier beneath the cover.

The movement completed and finished by John Mawdsely of Liverpool (?).
Date unknown, but likely mid 1850s.

The end stone on the balance pivot is actually a diamond, commonly used before the advent of synthetic rubies.

Canuck · May 26, 2021

JimInOz
Back to pocket watches.

An interesting English watch inherited by my Son-in-Law. It's a bit of a basket case but interesting all the same.

A fairly plain plate, made I think by Abbott & Garnett of Farnworth England, going by the stamp.

The side the owner may see if they are curious, is somewhat prettier beneath the cover.

The movement completed and finished by John Mawdsely of Liverpool (?).
Date unknown, but likely mid 1850s.

The end stone on the balance pivot is actually a diamond, commonly used before the advent of synthetic rubies.

Did the movement come in a case? If so, and if an English case, the date letter might give a clue as to age. I notice the hairspring is undersprung (below the balance wheel) which could imply origins earlier than 1850, as well.

I find the initials stamped into the pillar plate to be interesting. I don’t work on many English watches (hate working on them, actually), but I don’t recall ever having seen a plate stamped like this one is.

I think it is unfortunate that makers back in the day clearly had NO idea their watches would still be around 170 years later, and that people (collectors) would be curious about vintage, etc. If he hopes to return it to health, I wish him success.

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

I have a few that I know almost nothing about that have been in my family forever. This Waltham runs very well and the movement is a real work of art. Discussion is welcome. I’m not knowledgeable at all about pocket watches.

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

This one seems much older. It has my grandfather’s initials on the front of the case. The American Flag and the whole dial seem hand painted. The dial itself seems like enamel or porcelain. Discussion?

Canuck · May 26, 2021

S ScDevon
I have a few that I know almost nothing about that have been in my family forever. This Waltham runs very well and the movement is a real work of art. Discussion is welcome. I’m not knowledgeable at all about pocket watches.

Welcome,

I think the serial number on the movement (the mechanism) is16,139,245. If so, here is the skinny on your handsome Waltham.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/16139245

If you have any questions regarding the data in the attachment, get back to us. But this is an 1899 model, (patent date), made circa 1907 by the Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, Mass. the grade is P S Bartlett, one of 44,200 made in this grade, and one of a run (a block) of 1,000. It would not have been considered to be of railroad standard, since, when it was made, hunting cases (yours) were not permitted for railroad use. Yet as the data indicates, it was considered a very high quality watch at the time. Unable to tell you anything about the case unless you show pictures of the stampings inside the front or back covers. Ignore any scribblings you might see, as these a watchmaker marks. That beautiful dial looks as new after 114 years because it is vitreous enamel (basically glass) and they are impervious to aging (unless the watch is smacked around!) You have reason to be proud of it!

DaveK · May 26, 2021

S ScDevon
This one seems much older. It has my grandfather’s initials on the front of the case…

What a looker 😎

edit, darn typos

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

Canuck
Welcome,

I think the serial number on the movement (the mechanism) is16,139,245. .

You are correct. Good eye! I just confirmed the number with a magnifier. Sorry I didn't make the number more visible, but you have it exactly right. The second one I posted has a really decorated case and HEAVY! My grandfather was a boat captain and he kept it in the wheelhouse with him for most of his working life and he used to remark how accurate it was. Thanks!

Canuck · May 26, 2021

S ScDevon
This one seems much older. It has my grandfather’s initials on the front of the case. The American Flag and the whole dial seem hand painted. The dial itself seems like enamel or porcelain. Discussion?

The style of case on your watch is called a “box hinge”. Curiously, I don’t see any quality marks inside the front cover. Could be karat gold! Are there quality marks inside the back cover? The available data for your watch can be found, not by serial numbers on the case, but by the serial number on the mechanism. If you can open the cuvette (the inner cover inside the case back), provide the serial number on the movement, we can tell you more. Give us a picture of the marking inside the case back, as well.

Your dial is vitreous enamel, NOT porcelain! Porcelain is earthenware, and vitreous enamel is glass! The decoration could very well be hand painted in coloured vitreous enamel, but the dial is not likely hand-painted. These dials were produced in stages, the final stage being enamelling the decoration. The dial would (first) be enamelled in white powdered glass, fired in a kiln, then allowed to cool. The black enamel would be applied by stencil, pad printing, or silk screened, then the dial fired again. A hole would be cut in the dial, and a separate seconds bit fitted, and soldered in place. The dial is marked A W Co., Waltham. The Waltham Watch Co. went through a number of name changes over the decades. The AMERICAN Watch Co., the AMERICAN WALTHAM WATCH Co., WALTHAM WATCH Co. There were other names as well. But these are the notable names. A W Co. (of course) stands for American Waltham Co.

Get back to us with the mechanism serial number, because more info is available. You have the nucleus of a fine collection!

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

Canuck
If you can open the cuvette (the inner cover inside the case back), provide the serial number on the movement, we can tell you more. Give us a picture of the marking inside the case back, as well.

Sure. I'm quite comfortable opening up the watch. I own basic wristwatch service tools and I've been tinkering with Omega and Hamilton wristwatches for a while. (I didn't put any of the scratches on these watches LOL Ancient patina. Granddad used it as a daily driver, not a collector's item). I've just never had much interest in these pocket watches until now other than them being family heirlooms. They live in a safe almost 100% of the time.

I'll make it a point to photograph or note any case marks or numbers. I promise I'll get back to the thread later tonight when I have time.
Many thanks!

noelekal · May 26, 2021

Sure would love to see the movement on that second Waltham ScDevon. That case is eye-poppin'!

Canuck · May 26, 2021

S ScDevon
Sure. I'm quite comfortable opening up the watch. I own basic wristwatch service tools and I've been tinkering with Omega and Hamilton wristwatches for a while. (I didn't put any of the scratches on these watches LOL Ancient patina. Granddad used it as a daily driver, not a collector's item). I've just never had much interest in these pocket watches until now other than them being family heirlooms. They live in a safe almost 100% of the time.

I'll make it a point to photograph or note any case marks or numbers. I promise I'll get back to the thread later tonight when I have time.
Many thanks!

Many of us who frequent this thread will possibly agree with me that pocket watches are a LOT more interesting that wrist watches! On the other hand, not everyone would agree.

noelekal · May 26, 2021

I think I'm dually afflicted Canuck.

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

I had a chance to look at the watches. On this one, the inside of the first case back says “Hamann & Koch NY” with “14k” under that and the numbers “60364” at the bottom. Inside of the second cover, there is “14k” stamped on the bottom with a matching number of “60364” and a small “80” under the number. Movement 3026924. The balance has a nice swing. 300 degrees at least. I don’t want to load up the thread with too many pics, but let me know if you can’t zoom in and if you want a close pic of something special. The case shows way more scratches in the photos than it appears in person. Bright lights and photos are rough on old watches. Thanks for any help.

maanu · May 26, 2021

Newbie but military inspired.

JimInOz · May 26, 2021

maanu
Newbie but military inspired.

🥰

It's actually military issued.
The three crowns (Tre Kronor) symbol is the Swedish equivalent of the British Broad Arrow signifying military ownership of an item.

maanu · May 26, 2021

JimInOz
🥰

It's actually military issued.
The three crowns (Tre Kronor) symbol is the Swedish equivalent of the British Broad Arrow signifying military ownership of an item.

Yes, totally . I am very inspired Tre Kronor symbol.

Canuck · May 26, 2021

S ScDevon
I had a chance to look at the watches. On this one, the inside of the first case back says “Hamann & Koch NY” with “14k” under that and the numbers “60364” at the bottom. Inside of the second cover, there is “14k” stamped on the bottom with a matching number of “60364” and a small “80” under the number. Movement 3026924. The balance has a nice swing. 300 degrees at least. I don’t want to load up the thread with too many pics, but let me know if you can’t zoom in and if you want a close pic of something special. The case shows way more scratches in the photos than it appears in person. Bright lights and photos are rough on old watches. Thanks for any help.

Here is the skinny on your handsome Waltham:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/3028924

It is an 1883 (patent date) model Waltham P S Bartlett grade, The 1883 model Waltham was made in versions from 7 jewels, 11-jewels, 15-jewels, 17-jewels, and 21-jewels. It was produced from 1883, until about 1915, and it probably was produced in greater quantity over a longer period of time, than almost any other model (except the 16-size, 1908 model.) As you will see in the data attached, it was produced circa 1886 or ‘87. The marking in the case probably means it is solid 14-karat gold. I say probably, because precious metals marking laws were much looser in the 1880s than they became, later on. But I am about 80% sure it likely is solid 14-karat, just looking at the details of the case. This one was a better than average grade for the era, but was not of railroad standard grade. The number 60364 was the case maker’s serial number for that case. That number may well be found on each separate component of the case. While these cases were produced by machine, there would have been some hand fitting of the components, and the serial number helped the case maker to keep matching components together. As you have indicated, the case maker’s trade mark indicates the case was not made by a Waltham. This was common with all the U S watchmakers of the era. At the retail level, cases and movements were sold separately, and chosen by the customer at the time of purchase. Watch makers and case makers got together and agreed on standard sizes for movements, so case makers could produce cases that were easily fitted to movements. A watch to be proud of. A box hinge, karat gold case in that condition is a rare and desirable item. Be proud you ancestor had such good taste!

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

Canuck
Here is the skinny on your handsome Waltham:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/3028924

It is an 1883 (patent date) model Waltham P S Bartlett grade,

Wow, thanks for the info. That's a great database and it seems like Waltham kept better records than other companies of the time. I guess the case is 14k all the way then if the numbers match (?). Thanks for your time. Good thread. I'll look for any marks or info on the other Waltham's case just for fun.

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

noelekal
Sure would love to see the movement on that second Waltham ScDevon. That case is eye-poppin'!

The movement is a full plate design and there's not much to see, unfortunately. The balance is really nice though. I get the impression that these movements were at least (obviously) hand fitted, but poising that balance with the screws must have taken time even for experienced people. These old movements have a soul almost. Every one is fitted a little different and runs a little bit unique.