Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

DaveK · Jul 22, 2024

Canuck
Another fairly early collaboration between Hamilton and Ball was the Ball grade 999, 18-size, 23-jewel model of which there were only 100 produced. All of them in 1911. I have a picture of the only one of these that I have ever seen. I worked on one for a member of the watch repair fraternity, locally, many decades ago. It needed a balance staff, and he was unable to locate one. He asked for my help. I went to his shop where he had the watch open on his bench. I recognized it as a 18-size Hamilton from six feet away! I saw it was a Ball grade 999. I told him that any balance staff from any Hamilton grade 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 946, or 947 was the same balance staff. He didn’t have any of these. When I asked if I could do it for him (I had the staff), he asked me to do it. I had it back to him, done, the following day. Unfortunately, this was before digital photography, and before I discovered how to take decent pictures of watches, so the picture is lousy. However, three members of the Omega board own the Hamilton grade 946, 23-jewel version of this watch. It is a Hamilton grade 946, NOT a Ball grade 999, 23-jewel version, but you’ll get the idea.

That is a stunning watch. I need to add a Ball watch to my collection

Alpha · Jul 23, 2024

Still in love with the Elgin 😀

Waltesefalcon · Jul 23, 2024

DaveK
That is a stunning watch. I need to add a Ball watch to my collection

Adding a Hamilton 946 will be much easier. I've yet to see a Ball 999 anywhere.

The 946 is easily one of the best finished watches you'll ever see, and they are obtainable. A bit pricey by pocket watch standards, but well worth it.

Canuck · Jul 23, 2024

Waltesefalcon
Adding a Hamilton 946 will be much easier. I've yet to see a Ball 999 anywhere.

The 946 is easily one of the best finished watches you'll ever see, and they are obtainable. A bit pricey by pocket watch standards, but well worth it.

Ball used the 999 model designation on many different Ball models, with a variety of jewel counts. The 999 referred to above is the 18-size, 23-jewel model of which there were only 100 produced. Ball grade 999 models are readily available. Just not this particular one.

Webb Ball was quick to pick up the fact that Hamilton grade designations on most of their pocket watch movement began with the number 9. He was also aware of the speed record of 112.5 mph established by locomotive 999 of the New York Central Railroad, in 1893. He put 2 and 2 together, and adopted the number 999 as a grade designation used on Hamilton watches sold by Ball

https://www.msichicago.org/explore/whats-here/exhibits/transportation-gallery/the-exhibit/999-steam-locomotive#:~:text=The 999 Steam Locomotive was,record speed of 112.5 mph.

I have included a picture of the 16-size, 21-jewel Hamilton Ball from my collection. It is basically a Hamilton 992, but has the Ball designation 999.

DaveK · Jul 23, 2024

pdxleaf
More pocket watch newbie questions…

Besides the watchmakers here, do other people get your PWs serviced? Some watches, all watches, none? Mine is quite dirty, but I imagine it can get expensive to service a big collection of PWs.

Unless it’s super special (unique, stunning etc) or ubiquitous with ample spare parts (ie a Hamilton 992b), for me, buying a PW that is described as running is a very good idea. I like PW’s just to look at, so I don’t feel compelled to service all of them. The cost of service can often exceed or at least = a nice new toy. But, if the watch is not running, it haunts me and I’ll want to get it serviced. Certainly if I’m going to wear it, I’ll keep it serviced.

Canuck · Jul 23, 2024

DaveK
Unless it’s super special (unique, stunning etc) or ubiquitous with ample spare parts (ie a Hamilton 992b), for me, buying a PW that is described as running is a very good idea. I like PW’s just to look at, so I don’t feel compelled to service all of them. The cost of service can often exceed or at least = a nice new toy. But, if the watch is not running, it haunts me and I’ll want to get it serviced. Certainly if I’m going to wear it, I’ll keep it serviced.

Speaking as someone who repairs watches, I service every watch I acquire. With a collection consisting of about 130 watches, it is indeed a benefit to be able to attend to them. Now, once I have serviced a particular watch, that watch may not be serviced again, for a long time. Maybe decades! If I choose to wear a particular one (pocket or wrist), long term, I’ll service it. But most of my watches probably only run for about one week out of the year.

Waltesefalcon · Jul 23, 2024

Canuck
Ball used the 999 model designation on many different Ball models, with a variety of jewel counts. The 999 referred to above is the 18-size, 23-jewel model of which there were only 100 produced. Ball grade 999 models are readily available. Just not this particular one.

Webb Ball was quick to pick up the fact that Hamilton grade designations on most of their pocket watch movement began with the number 9. He was also aware of the speed record of 112.5 mph established by locomotive 999 of the New York Central Railroad, in 1893. He put 2 and 2 together, and adopted the number 999 as a grade designation used on Hamilton watches sold by Ball

https://www.msichicago.org/explore/whats-here/exhibits/transportation-gallery/the-exhibit/999-steam-locomotive#:~:text=The 999 Steam Locomotive was,record speed of 112.5 mph.

I have included a picture of the 16-size, 21-jewel Hamilton Ball from my collection. It is basically a Hamilton 992, but has the Ball designation 999.

I had assumed we were talking about the 18s 999. Mea culpa.

Waltesefalcon · Jul 23, 2024

DaveK
Unless it’s super special (unique, stunning etc) or ubiquitous with ample spare parts (ie a Hamilton 992b), for me, buying a PW that is described as running is a very good idea. I like PW’s just to look at, so I don’t feel compelled to service all of them. The cost of service can often exceed or at least = a nice new toy. But, if the watch is not running, it haunts me and I’ll want to get it serviced. Certainly if I’m going to wear it, I’ll keep it serviced.

Learning to service watches is a fun hobby. I would recommend it if you continue to acquire.

Bernhard J · Jul 23, 2024

Waltesefalcon
Learning to service watches is a fun hobby. I would recommend it if you continue to acquire.

Provided that you do not attempt that in an area with carpets or wooden floorboards with gaps .... 😁

Canuck · Jul 23, 2024

Waltesefalcon
I had assumed we were talking about the 18s 999. Mea culpa.

Yes, we were talking about the grade 999, 18-size, 23-jewel model. But you commented that you might look for a grade 999! I only set out to point out that the grade 999 designation applies to most Hamilton Ball ORRS (Official Railroad Standard) pocket watches.

DaveK · Jul 23, 2024

Waltesefalcon
Learning to service watches is a fun hobby. I would recommend it if you continue to acquire.

That is an excellent idea

TexOmega · Jul 23, 2024

I’ve never run across 1 of the 100 23j 999 but the day is just starting!😁

but I’ve a 21j 999A in a Sunburst Type3 pattern circa 1911 that I placed in a display case to show off the beauty of Hamilton’s design team.

TexOmega · Jul 24, 2024

Non-Magnetic Watch Company of America made by Peoria Watch Co.
Year: 1889
18s 15j in gold settings, Palliard's patent balance and hairspring

Not been serviced while in my hands.

Mr. Palliard worked with Patek as a final regulator and adjuster and perfected his use of Palladium/special manufacturing techniques in the 1880's. It is written he was always concerned about accuracy and with the NEW-FANGLED electricity appearing to become popular, set out to perfect a way to keep watches from becoming magnetized, eventually earning patents. Watches made in Switzerland used his patents first, and eventually the technology made it over across the Pond.

Quite the history over in the US and my ads reproduce the wrangling.

Not really called "grades" but were called by numerals in ads and mine is a no. 43 because it has jewels in gold settings, a distinguishing feature.

The company was in receivership by 1890

Lovely Double Sunk v. enamel dial and blued Morning Glory Hands.

And if that is not just the cat's meow, it is encased by my favorite US PW case manufacturer, G. W. Ladd. The Anchor symbol indicates this was warranted 25yrs, so not solid gold. But they always had a high gold content with high stress areas reinforced with "stiffened" metal. This one was made post the 1883 patent renewal.

TexOmega · Jul 24, 2024

Added case pictures

ghce · Jul 24, 2024

Thank you for showing me this brand and such a wealth of information.
It's all to easy to get stuck on the big 4 of Waltham, Hamilton, Illinois and Elgin. Just another great facet of RR grade watches to delve into!

Canuck · Jul 24, 2024

Canuck
Another fairly early collaboration between Hamilton and Ball was the Ball grade 999, 18-size, 23-jewel model of which there were only 100 produced. All of them in 1911. I have a picture of the only one of these that I have ever seen. I worked on one for a member of the watch repair fraternity, locally, many decades ago. It needed a balance staff, and he was unable to locate one. He asked for my help. I went to his shop where he had the watch open on his bench. I recognized it as a 18-size Hamilton from six feet away! I saw it was a Ball grade 999. I told him that any balance staff from any Hamilton grade 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 946, or 947 was the same balance staff. He didn’t have any of these. When I asked if I could do it for him (I had the staff), he asked me to do it. I had it back to him, done, the following day. Unfortunately, this was before digital photography, and before I discovered how to take decent pictures of watches, so the picture is lousy. However, three members of the Omega board own the Hamilton grade 946, 23-jewel version of this watch. It is a Hamilton grade 946, NOT a Ball grade 999, 23-jewel version, but you’ll get the idea.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that Hamilton produced 100 23-jewel,18-size ORRS pocket watches for the Ball Watch Co. The watch is basically a Hamilton 23-jewel, 18-size model, grade 946. A 946 is shown in this thread. The Ball Watch Co. called this 23-jewel, 18-size model, grade 999. I went through my photo archives earlier today, in search of a picture of the one I worked in about 2000. Couldn’t find it. However, I have a picture of one of these. This picture comes from a book compiled by Donald Hoke, commemorating the collection of the now disbanded Time Museum of Rockford, Ill. The museum was founded by the late Seth Atwood who gathered probably the most outstanding collection of its type in the world! The book was compiled circa 1990, and the ISBN # is 0-912947-04-7. A friend and I attended a conference at the Time Museum sponsored by the NAWCC, the subject being American made pocket watches. We saw the museum. WOW! The book is probably no longer in print, but if you like American made pocket watches, this book is a good one to have.

The Hamilton Ball, 18-size, 23-jewel grade 999. One of 100 produced entirely in 1911.

Interestingly, the sun ray pattern on the 23-jewel Hamilton Ball grade 999 appears to be the same as the pattern on the 21-jewel Hamilton Ball shown earlier, by @TexOmega . Any of the watch companies that produced watches for Ball, reportedly supplied semi-finished movements, and the staff in Cleveland brought the watch to Ball’s standards. This was how the Ball Watch Co. got away with calling themselves, manufacturers.

Bernhard J · Jul 26, 2024

Here another European one. Ca. 1820.

Canuck · Jul 26, 2024

Is this a quarter repeater, a minute repeater? If neither, then please tell us. Cylinder escapement, or…………? Maker to the king? (As in Du Roi?)

Bernhard J · Jul 26, 2024

This is a quarter repeater wherein the movement is of the variant "Lepine IIA Type Breguet". The movement types Lepine I to V origin in the designs of Jean-Antoine Lepine, and the designs were rapidly adopted by other watchmakers in France and Switzerland. They all had cylinder escapement with steel or ruby cylinder, and were built from 1800 on, when Jean-Antoine Lepine did not work any more.The top level ones had parachute and temperature compensation.

The shown movement is from about 1820, perhaps even 1825. This is evident from the gold stamps in the case, which were in use from about 1817 only (and until the late 1820s only). So this watch was not made by the master himself, but by the Maison Lepine, which was in hands of a legal successor at that time.

You can find genuine Breguet or Lepine watches with exactly the shown movement type, although I would suppose that the Maisons Breguet or Lepine bought in the grey movements and "only" finished, signed and cased them. You can find watches with essentially the same movement design (also in very high quality) with other signatures, or even anonymeous. Or with fake signatures, then mostly in feeble gold cases and base metal cuvette, and without parachute and temperature compensation.

This one is a genuine Lepine (better said: Maison Lepine) as evident by the signed dial in combination with a very sophisticated rare case with high gold content. And the high jewel number (jeweled up to the minute wheel is very rare in this movement type), of course with parachute and temperatur compensation. The serial number fits well into the list of confirmed watches from the Maison Lepine.

Frankly said, this watch is - regarding the movement - not better than any other watch with this movement type, but the case and the genuine signature make the music. The same with almost identically looking genuine Maison Breguet movements/watches, wherein the name (only) makes even better music😉. I know that sounds like an insult to majesty in case of similar Maison Breguet watches, but it simply is like that.

German Watch-wiki says that Jean Antoine Lepine was appointed Royal Court Clockmaker under Louis XV in 1766, and retained this title under Louis XVI and Napoleon. Sounds a little bit strange, because Napoleon called himself "Empereur" and not "Roi", i.e. one rank higher than a King. "Hger" stands for "Horloger".

P.S.: There is a funny US dealer offering two "Lepines" for really excessive prices and claiming that both watches were made 1780. That is clearly false, both movements were made not earlier than about 1825. And claiming ruby cylinders, which is wrong also. So watch out, if you fall in love with a "Lepine" ... 😎

Canuck · Jul 26, 2024

@Bernhard J ,

Relative to the watches we see in this hemisphere, the watches you favour are very different. Thanks for the full precis on your repeater.

I have only run into one watch with a ruby cylinder escapement. It was an English watch by John Sewill from circa the early 19th century. The movement was a splendid performer, and the action of the balance wheel was totally unlike every Swiss watch with a steel cylinder. The motion of the balance wheel was akin to the motion of a high grade lever escapement. Here’s the watch. Note that the dial is marked M A X I M O T A J E S. He was the dictator of Ecuador circa the late 1890s. (Not my watch.)