Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

140dave · Mar 12, 2021

DaveK
Wow, nothing on that dial makes sense! I think it allows you to count down the time before you go insane from wondering how it works 😉

A key-wound watch, so it would have had a purpose for some function in, say, 1900 or earlier

🍿

Maybe It also comes from your crayon-letter writing friends ....

DaveK · Mar 12, 2021

140dave
Maybe It also comes from your crayon-letter writing friends ....

That might describe @Fritz 😗

Jopi · Mar 12, 2021

This I think is a fairly nice Waltham, grade 620 from 1908. Picked up at an auction so there is no great story to it. But I like it a lot.

TexOmega · Mar 12, 2021

A special one:
Circa 1900 serial # 90557
Ball & Co via Hamilton..... 18s 17j circular damascening
A few hundred scattered over several runs have Single Roller Adjusted on Barrel Bridge but few survive.
Hamilton designated it as a 999E Type 3, internally, and Ball first stamped them(or had Hamilton stamp them) in 1904.
A very uncommon double sunk dial with large signature ORRS is necessary to be correct with movement. Webb Ball did not like DS dials, thinking they were less rugged. Rare as hens teeth.
RR grade and approved but mostly on RR with less restrictive requirements.

probably incorrect hands for the era and for Ball, but are hands found later on RR grade watches.

Canuck · Mar 12, 2021

Here’s the skinny on @TexOmega ’s Ball Hamilton. Railroads often took liberties with existing time service rules. If your railroad subscribed to a particular General Time Inspector (I. e. Ball), then those are the standards that prevailed. Many railroads hired their own General Time Inspector, and he was the one to interpret standards. CPR approved single roller, stem set, 1883 model Walthams with 3 position adjustments, heat, & cold (5 adjustments). Go figure!

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/ball/90577

Jones in LA · Mar 12, 2021

Canuck
Another watch with a story. Unfortunately, not a happy one.

Many years ago, an elderly long time watchmaker where I live, passed away. His son inherited the residue from his business. He advertised that he was clearing the accumulation of parts and tools. I went to the sale, and bought what I wanted. He apparently kept my name, and about ten years later, I got a call from him. He indicated that he he had a rare and valuable watch, and he wondered if I might be interested. I asked him to bring it. He did.

The watch he brought was neither rare, or valuable. It was an 18-size, 17-jewel Hamilton grade 927, made circa 1903. It was in running condition. The grade 927 was a grade that originally was fitted into a hunter style case. This watch was no longer in its original case, but a chrome plated, open faced, aftermarket case. I told him the watch was not rare, not valuable, and not totally original. I made him an offer which clearly disappointed him. He accepted my offer, and left.

This happened on a Tuesday. On Friday, that week, I came home from work. I read in the daily paper about a murder/suicide that happened on the Thursday, in a town about 100 kms north of here. You may have guessed who it was!

Since then, I have fitted the 927 movement into a so so gold filled hunter case which will do, until I luck into a better one.

Putting the movement into a different case also separates it from its glum history and gives it a new, hopeful future 😀

Canuck · Mar 12, 2021

Jopi
This I think is a fairly nice Waltham, grade 620 from 1908. Picked up at an auction so there is no great story to it. But I like it a lot.

I too think that is a nice little Waltham. So often, these days, we open a nice hunter case like that to find a gilt, “Seaside”, 7-jewel movement. Always a disappointment. But this one “pops”! Very attractive damascening, usually found only one these higher grade models. Thanks for posting.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/17407014

Fritz · Mar 12, 2021

Fritz
I just want to mess with Dave's noggin so...

@DaveK identify this! What is this watch's cool parlor trick!?

@DaveK

Ready for it?

Its a dual time watch. The long black hand points to the hours per the "old" time system, 24hrs/day. The black hour hand points to the hours per the "new" system, 10hrs/day. The gold hand counts the minutes in the new system, 100 per hour.

Welcome to the French Revolution! its Metric!

When our most wise French friends came up with metric they covered all the bases, including time!

So enjoy your ten hour day with 100 minutes per hour.

It only lasted 2 or 3 years before they gave up, the 24 hour day was just too ingrained and most people couldn't afford a watch anyway.

The above piece must have been owned by a rich dude, it would be an extra few wheels in that sucker to cover two so very different times systems.

x1182339-02e58fa533f7392aaed6204b1ba5dbaf.jpg.pagespeed.ic.9wiYQ27zuw.webp

140dave · Mar 12, 2021

Fritz
@DaveK

Ready for it?

Its a dual time watch. The long black hand points to the hours per the "old" time system, 24hrs/day. The black hour hand points to the hours per the "new" system, 10hrs/day. The gold hand counts the minutes in the new system, 100 per hour.

Welcome to the French Revolution! its Metric!

When our most wise French friends came up with metric they covered all the bases, including time!

So enjoy your ten hour day with 100 minutes per hour.

It only lasted 2 or 3 years before they gave up, the 24 hour day was just too ingrained and most people couldn't afford a watch anyway.

The above piece must have been owned by a rich dude, it would be an extra few wheels in that sucker to cover two so very different times systems.

I thought it was something like that but my math failed for it to make complete sense. So a "metric second" would be .864 of a real second? oooooff ...... well it has to be 7 Metric Hours somewhere!

DaveK · Mar 12, 2021

Fritz
@DaveK

Ready for it?

Its a dual time watch. The long black hand points to the hours per the "old" time system, 24hrs/day. The black hour hand points to the hours per the "new" system, 10hrs/day. The gold hand counts the minutes in the new system, 100 per hour.

Welcome to the French Revolution! its Metric!

When our most wise French friends came up with metric they covered all the bases, including time!

So enjoy your ten hour day with 100 minutes per hour.

It only lasted 2 or 3 years before they gave up, the 24 hour day was just too ingrained and most people couldn't afford a watch anyway.

The above piece must have been owned by a rich dude, it would be an extra few wheels in that sucker to cover two so very different times systems.

Very cool! With just a few years of using metric time, this must be a super-rare piece 😎

metric makes a lot of sense just about everywhere , but...

Thank you for sharing!

Canuck · Mar 12, 2021

There was a humorous exchange of repartee between the moderators and several members in this thread, regarding the merits of a POCKET WATCH forum. Check out this thread:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/12-mar-2021-dns-server-changes.128688/

It seems that it took 88 pages of participation before the institution of the Seiko forum. Well, in just under two weeks, this thread has gone from nowhere, to 17 pages, 6300 views, and 329 posts! Can we do it? Of course we can! Keep up the lobbying, @DaveK , @TexOmega , and @LesXL . They heard you talking!

Meanwhile, back to business. Is there anything pocket watchwise that anyone wants to share? Keep up the good work!

Canuck · Mar 12, 2021

View attachment 1182460 Here’s one. Not so much a story, but about the evolution of 18-size Illinois pocket watches. The Illinois model 1 was a key wind, key set movement. Being key wind, it was possible for Illinois to offer the model 1 as an open faced watch, or a hunter cased watch. Came the model 2 Illinois movement which was a “transitional” movement. Transitional in that it was made so that it could be KEY wound, or STEM wound. The model 2 was made for a hunter case. Illinois decided they needed a transitional model that was made for an open faced case. Comes the model 3 18-size Illinois. Otherwise known as the “fifth pinion” model. To fit a model 2 movement (meant for a hunter case) into an open faced case with the crown at the 12:00 position, the seconds hand would end up at the 3:00 position because the movement would have to be turned 90° counter-clockwise so that the crown would end up at the 12:00 position. Meaning the watch would need a “conversion” dial. Illinois wanted to introduce an open faced watch with the crown at the 12:00 position, and the seconds hand at the 6:00 position. How to do that without designing a whole new movement! Enter the “fifth pinion” model 3 movement.

The picture is of the movement in my model 3, “fifth pinion” Illinois 18-size, open faced watch.

The arrow at A points at the top pivot of the fourth wheel. The long pivot on the dial side of the fourth wheel carries the seconds hand. You may notice that the seconds would be in the wrong (the 3:00) position with this movement in an open faced case. How to solve this? The arrow at B points at the top pivot of the third wheel which drives the fourth wheel pinion at A. Illinois converted the model 2 movement by adding a “fifth pinion”, see the arrow at C. This pinion is driven by the third wheel, and had a lengthened pivot on the dial side, to carry the seconds hand! Ergo! We end up with an open faced watch with the crown at the 12:00 position, and the seconds hand at the 6:00 position. Just the way it should be, right? Clever?

Notice that this movement is a stem winder, but can also be wound with a key. Hence, transitional.

Canuck · Mar 13, 2021

Here’s one with a story! It could be a very long story, so I’ll leave to those interested to search the whole story. The story has to do with the Confederate submarine, the Hunley. This is not the story of the Hunley, but of the watch that was carried by its commander, George E. Dixon, first lieutenant of the Confederate Army during the Civil War. The story of the Hunley can be found here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Hunley_(submarine

In particular, this post is regarding Dixon’s watch which was found while exploring the hull of the sunken Hunley when it was discovered in 1995, and raised in 2000. It has been restored, and is in a museum.

To the watch:

The makers’s name on the movement appears to be S I Tobias. Location, Liverpool (England). My copy of G.H. Bailie’s book, Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World, Volume 1, lists Samuel Isaac Tobias as operating in Liverpool, 1811 to 1813. Nowhere have I been able to record the hallmark, date letter, standard mark, and case maker’s trade mark in pictures of the gold case. But Tobias was almost assuredly in business for more than two years. There were many members of the Tobias family operating as watchmakers, including Morris Tobias who also is listed as operating in Liverpool, 1805 to 1829. The movement may also have been made by him. No way to know, that I am aware of. The (18-karat) gold case has withstood the corrosive qualities of salt water, following 150 years of immersion. I am not an expert on English watches, but this one has the appearance of being key wound with a fusee (chain drive). My guess on this watch is that it may have either a “rack lever” or English lever, not a verge type escapement. Having said that, the movement has the appearance of having originated circa the mid 19th century, and likely by a Tobias family member, but not S I Tobias. English makers names on watches of this era can often mean “successors to” the person named.

TexOmega · Mar 13, 2021

With this Transitional 5th pinion Illinois, I get to show off my favorite American case maker, GW Ladd

18s 11j Columbia Grade, Model 3 circa 1881....Not RR grade.....KW/SW with key. Lever set

Unique subseconds layout, numerals on the face and in 15 second radial design.

GW Ladd imprint logo was the head profile some faced right some left but if one sees and handles a Ladd case, you'll always spot it, quality and heft all the way.

They always appear to be solid gold, and some are, but mostly he used a higher gold content and "stiffened" the usual wear areas so the luster and heft is noticeable and unmistakable.

Also, just look at this case profile, quality and beauty are the hallmarks. This one earned a 30 year guaranty.
Sold by a jeweler in Bangor, Maine

Ladd Watch Case - Jewelry Circular - Feb. 17, 1892.jpg

Canuck · Mar 13, 2021

WOW! Now that is a watch. Indeed a model three “transitional” key wind or stem wind model. In the first picture, the arrow at A points to the absence of the square shaft in the middle of the minute hand which would have to be there if the watch was meant to be set with a key. The arrow at B points at the setting lever which would enable the watch to be set by the crown.

The second picture has the arrow pointing at the accessory “fifth pinion” which modifies this hunter case movement so it can be installed in an open faced case, and have the seconds hand where it needs to be. Thanks @TexOmega .

LesXL · Mar 13, 2021

Guys... This thread is crazy! I'm getting blind by such gorgeous watches and stories!!

I'm overwhelmed with the depth of knowledge and details.

Surely motivating me into searching for my next PW!

TexOmega · Mar 13, 2021

LesXL
Guys... This thread is crazy! I'm getting blind by such gorgeous watches and stories!!

I'm overwhelmed with the depth of knowledge and details.

Surely motivating me into searching for my next PW!

And this is only page 17!

noelekal · Mar 13, 2021

I could use some guidance.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/waltham-st...665945?hash=item343e5e4959:g:UxgAAOSw9vdgTNct
This Ebay find Waltham silver cased hunter has a case which resembles my great grandfather's watch, only this case has no dent in it. I have no idea what sort of movement's inside. "Overwound" is a catch-all for lots of maladies. Is it worth a bid just as a pig-in-a-poke? What is a worst case scenario?

I'd love to have a silver hunter with this case style. I suppose this one could have a low grade movement or be hopelessly non-repairable.

Waltesefalcon · Mar 13, 2021

This is my old English pocket watch, it's a Josh Johnson Liverpool fusee watch with an English lever escapment. This watch was probably made by either his son or one of his grandsons as the case hallmarks place it a couple of years after his death.

The Silver pair case was made by Joseph Harris of Coventry, hallmarked 1849. The dial is a replacement, if you look closely you can see that it is not hand painted, the second hand is also a likely replacement.

If you look at the last couple of photos you can see the end of the lever and the escape wheel. The obvious way to tell if it's an English lever is that the balance wheel, lever, and escape wheel make a right angle.

Canuck · Mar 13, 2021

noelekal
I could use some guidance.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/waltham-st...665945?hash=item343e5e4959:g:UxgAAOSw9vdgTNct
This Ebay find Waltham silver cased hunter has a case which resembles my great grandfather's watch, only this case has no dent in it. I have no idea what sort of movement's inside. "Overwound" is a catch-all for lots of maladies. Is it worth a bid just as a pig-in-a-poke? What is a worst case scenario?

I'd love to have a silver hunter with this case style. I suppose this one could have a low grade movement or be hopelessly non-repairable.

@noelekal ,

On the one hand, the seller says “fully functional, operates as it should.” Then they say “not running, overwound”. There is no indication whatever as to grade, size, jewel count, no picture of the movement, nothing! If you were to have uncovered this thing in the effects of a late relative, and you remembered it as a kid (i. e. you remember sitting on your grand father’s knee, and he let you listen to it), then you would get a quote on what it might need. You might decide to spend the money. You have no emotional investment in this item, and you may not like the estimate to make it run. I wouldn’t touch it if I were you. Don’t be in a hurry! (Look for a PM from someone who might have just the watch for you. Not me, by the way.)