Bristol 188 British Supersonic Research Aircraft and steps to Concorde

Omegafanman · Jul 11, 2020

So, I fell upon a YouTube video on the Bristol 188 and have ended up bouncing around various topics (there is a question on my last post below). The video is well worth a watch
Amazing to see what was achieved and could have been achieved back then (don’t get me started on the TSR-2)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_188

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivf4mXaqME8

Omegafanman · Jul 11, 2020

All roads then lead back to Concorde – the fact that it operated at the edge of space at 1354 mph carrying 128 people drinking champagne still beggars belief compared to the do or die test pilots pushing the envelope in the fifties and sixties. The 188 used unpainted steel alloys to overcome heat from the sound pressure waves – but Concorde used Aluminium alloys and super special paint (I think Concorde also used fuel as a coolant). Maybe Bremont should have gone with the 188 flaming pencil for their Stainless Steel Supersonic watch.
Also, Concorde expanded a lot (30cm) in flight due to the heat. I have read that the most obvious manifestation of this was a gap that opened up on the flight deck between the flight engineer's console and the bulkhead and that when each Concordes had its supersonic retirement flight, the flight engineers placed their hats in this gap before it cooled, where the hats remain to this day ( I could not see it in my picture below :0).

Of course, Omega also supplied some of the flight instruments for Concorde which are on display at the Museum.

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Omegafanman · Jul 11, 2020

So back to the 188 British Supersonic Research Aircraft and the test pilot Godfrey Auty – I could see he was wearing a watch in the video but could not see what it was – any eagle-eyed members who can make it out? I could not dig up a lot of information on his back story, but noted he was able to recover a Britannia when its auto pilot failed on a test flight – others were not so lucky and fifteen died when a prototype crashed in Bristol back in 1957. I have spoken to first responders who attended that incident and it brought home to me the risks people took to make the technical advances we often take for granted.

MRC · Jul 11, 2020

The Bristol 188 still exists and is on display at the Cosford RAF Museum, where I saw it nearly 30 years ago 😀

Also there are a TSR-2 and a Fairey Delta 2 -- the aircraft that first inspired my interest in aircraft in 1956.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/bristol-type-188/

Omegafanman · Jul 11, 2020

MRC
The Bristol 188 still exists and is on display at the Cosford RAF Museum, where I saw it nearly 30 years ago 😀

Also there are a TSR-2 and a Fairey Delta 2 -- the aircraft that first inspired my interest in aircraft in 1956.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/bristol-type-188/

Thanks - I will add that on my list of possible visits. @MRC then takes me from the TSR-2 to the Multi-Role-Combat Aircraft MRCA... a child of the seventies which became the Tornado and I think went supersonic on its first test flight... that plane has a strong history and I think grew from the TSR-2

Professor · Jul 11, 2020

Those instrument panels could induce seizures.
The flaming pencil looks a bit like an early SR-71 prototype.
I've been reading a bit about the English Electric Lightning and it was certainly a formidable aircraft, especially as an ultra high altitude interceptor.
First I heard of that jet was when the Talmanz motion picture aircraft company used it as a double for the MIG-21. The Mig was much slimmer, it was also nicknamed the flaming pencil. Otherwise the lines were very similar, as was the over under twin engine layout.

MRC · Jul 11, 2020

Professor
I've been reading a bit about the English Electric Lightning and it was certainly a formidable aircraft, especially as an ultra high altitude interceptor.

Notorious for the pilot needing to declare a fuel emergency as the wheels left the runway.

Professor
First I heard of that jet was when the Talmanz motion picture aircraft company used it as a double for the MIG-21. The Mig was much slimmer, it was also nicknamed the flaming pencil. Otherwise the lines were very similar, as was the over under twin engine layout.

MiG-21 is single engine. Lotsa good stuff about these aircraft here http://www.airvectors.net/index.html

TimeODanaos · Jul 11, 2020

Professor
I've been reading a bit about the English Electric Lightning and it was certainly a formidable aircraft, especially as an ultra high altitude interceptor.

As a young boy at an air show, by chance I stood right opposite the V1 point as a Lightning rotated on take-off. Can still see - and hear - it. The angle of attack seemed impossible. Apparently the fastest climb jet in the world at that time.
Of course, the ejection seat wasn't so great - you apparently checked your kneecaps afterwards.
Look out for two fascinating BBC films called "Cold War, Hot Jets".
Tangent, sorry - check out the Victor and Vulcan aircraft: genuinely futuristic technology born in the 1950s!

Professor · Jul 11, 2020

MRC
MiG-21 is single engine

Correct. The Mig-19 that preceded it was a twin engine, side by side rather than over under.
Not sure where I got the idea that the Mig-21 was a over under twin. Perhaps a prototype of some sort.
The first MIG-19 prototypes were modified MIG-17 fighters. Two more compact engines replacing the original larger engine.

The main features the Lightning shares with the MIG-21 are the spine of the fuselage and constrictor cone in the intake.
The spine of the Mig-21 houses a long narrow fuel tank.

Omegafanman · Jul 12, 2020

TimeODanaos
As a young boy at an air show, by chance I stood right opposite the V1 point as a Lightning rotated on take-off. Can still see - and hear - it. The angle of attack seemed impossible. Apparently the fastest climb jet in the world at that time.
Of course, the ejection seat wasn't so great - you apparently checked your kneecaps afterwards.
Look out for two fascinating BBC films called "Cold War, Hot Jets".
Tangent, sorry - check out the Victor and Vulcan aircraft: genuinely futuristic technology born in the 1950s!

I thought this story and famous picture were fascinating. One of 20 pre-production F1 prototypes in 1962 suffered total control failure after engine issues - coming into land at Hatfield with test pilot George Aird at the controls. He managed to get enough height to eject at the very last second and landed in a green house not far from the crash (hole can be seen in the photo). A million to one picture of him before the canopy opened as someone was taking a photo nearby at the exact moment. Amazing plane but aerodynamics of a brick at low speed I imagine - and high fuel burn as already mentioned … but what a ride (could catch a U2 from a standing start / still very fast by todays standards I imagine :0)… looking at the crash photo again the explosion probably helped inflate the chute - damn close....

Video is George Aird in 1984 about to fly a vintage Mosquito.

http://www.rafjever.org/118sqnper002.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp0486rsaAM

Omegafanman · Jul 12, 2020

TimeODanaos
As a young boy at an air show, by chance I stood right opposite the V1 point as a Lightning rotated on take-off. Can still see - and hear - it. The angle of attack seemed impossible. Apparently the fastest climb jet in the world at that time.
Of course, the ejection seat wasn't so great - you apparently checked your kneecaps afterwards.
Look out for two fascinating BBC films called "Cold War, Hot Jets".
Tangent, sorry - check out the Victor and Vulcan aircraft: genuinely futuristic technology born in the 1950s!

This old post mentions a accidental English Electric Lightning take off.... and shows an accidental Victor take off - probably the last flight of a Victor... crazy to think these planes were in the air not 10 years after the Lancaster - technology moved fast then.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/hawker-hunter-london-tower-bridge-incident.94380/

Omegafanman · Jul 12, 2020

@Professor …. ''Those instrument panels could induce seizures''

I know what you mean. I got a shot inside the last flying Vulcan XH558 which was also 'busy' compared to the Lancaster (Lancaster Just Jane was taxi not flight ready)

krogerfoot · Jul 12, 2020

Omegafanman
I thought this story and famous picture were fascinating. One of 20 pre-production F1 prototypes in 1962 suffered total control failure after engine issues - coming into land at Hatfield with test pilot George Aird at the controls. He managed to get enough height to eject at the very last second and landed in a green house not far from the crash (hole can be seen in the photo). A million to one picture of him before the canopy opened as someone was taking a photo nearby at the exact moment. Amazing plane but aerodynamics of a brick at low speed I imagine - and high fuel burn as already mentioned … but what a ride (could catch a U2 from a standing start / still very fast by todays standards I imagine :0)… looking at the crash photo again the explosion probably helped inflate the chute - damn close....

Video is George Aird in 1984 about to fly a vintage Mosquito.

http://www.rafjever.org/118sqnper002.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp0486rsaAM

Great story, but do you wonder about that photo? Both the tractor in the foreground and the presumably fast-moving aircraft far in the distance are in sharp focus, while the rest of the background is blurred.

Omegafanman · Jul 12, 2020

krogerfoot
Great story, but do you wonder about that photo? Both the tractor in the foreground and the presumably fast-moving aircraft far in the distance are in sharp focus, while the rest of the background is blurred.

I would agree if it was more modern... but photo was impounded by MOD and then rights were sold to the daily mirror for a goodly sum once released … and there was no guarantee it would be approved / a lot of censorship back then...so I would say it is genuine. The plane was coming in low and slow (ish) with engine issues. The gear is down and it pitched up at the last minute and then 'fell' out of the sky so not a high speed crash

Socks · Jul 12, 2020

Omegafanman
(don’t get me started on the TSR-2)

Oh if you don't, I will...The text from a book by Peter Lewis - 'The British Bomber since 1914'

In creating the machine the British Aircraft Corporation and the numerous firms associated with the project had met a tremendous challenge of the greatest possible technical magnitude and had proved equal to the task by producing in the TSR-2 an aeroplane of outstanding merit and of everlasting credit to the country's mischievously treated aircraft industry. Their endeavours were, however, in vain, for the ignoble fate suffered by the TSR-2 was obnoxious and destructive criminal folly foisted upon an unashamed and uneasy British public by fanatics and opportunists concerned more with the promotion of their unsavoury and gimcrack political tenets than with the preservation of the dignity and safety of the British Nation.... ..... ....with the perfidious and calamitous extinction of the TSR-2

And that's an aviation reference book!

TimeODanaos · Jul 12, 2020

Don't hold back now - and no sitting on the fence, neither!
Canning TSR-2 was a heartbreaker all right. So were the hidden post war, post Suez economic realities and government incompetencies. As a boy of course, all I knew was a beautiful (albeit deadly) thing died.

MRC · Jul 12, 2020

krogerfoot
Great story, but do you wonder about that photo? Both the tractor in the foreground and the presumably fast-moving aircraft far in the distance are in sharp focus, while the rest of the background is blurred.

It was debated in the military section of PPRuNe [*] and rated as real. Name of pilot and photographer given, and comments from the grandson of the photographer.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/301942-lightning-ejection.html

[*] Professional Pilots Rumour Network

GordonL · Jul 12, 2020

Socks
Oh if you don't, I will...The text from a book by Peter Lewis - 'The British Bomber since 1914'

In creating the machine the British Aircraft Corporation and the numerous firms associated with the project had met a tremendous challenge of the greatest possible technical magnitude and had proved equal to the task by producing in the TSR-2 an aeroplane of outstanding merit and of everlasting credit to the country's mischievously treated aircraft industry. Their endeavours were, however, in vain, for the ignoble fate suffered by the TSR-2 was obnoxious and destructive criminal folly foisted upon an unashamed and uneasy British public by fanatics and opportunists concerned more with the promotion of their unsavoury and gimcrack political tenets than with the preservation of the dignity and safety of the British Nation.... ..... ....with the perfidious and calamitous extinction of the TSR-2

And that's an aviation reference book!

re the TSR2. Ferranti designed and test-flew a world-beating Terrain Following Radar for the TSR2. When the project was cancelled, all the drawings, jigs, tooling etc were destroyed by instruction from the MoD. One example of the radar was hidden away in someone's garage and is now on display at the Edinburgh factory....

There's a wonderful early 60s promotional film here:

Flying blind at 400kts/200ft over the Scottish mountains and obeying a small marker on the head-up display! That must have taken some courage.

Stripey · Jul 12, 2020

krogerfoot
Great story, but do you wonder about that photo? Both the tractor in the foreground and the presumably fast-moving aircraft far in the distance are in sharp focus, while the rest of the background is blurred.

I wouldn't say the aircraft is in particularly sharp focus, tbh, and the background blur seems more horizontal. It might have been touched up perhaps?

Norfolk · Jul 12, 2020

I once did a photo shoot with the last Vulcan! Or rather my car did...and amazingly I just found it on the tube.

We had to be super careful about any debris on runway. Apparently a dropped spanner did for one engine.