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Boeing 737 Max Aircraft - Would You Fly On One?
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Makesbelieve
·The airlines/Boeing are allowed to "plug" those door openings because they are operating with LESS capacity. FAA mandates the number of exit doors based on seating capacity. They (Alaska) did not configure the seating of the Max9 to maximum capacity, so they could eliminate 2 exit doors.
That's interesting, it still doesn't make sense to me. I understand that the FAA mandate the number of doors based on capacity, but I would imagine that it's a mandated minimum number of doors, I doubt they would reprimand an airline for choosing the exit doors over door plug option if they were flying under capacity. I still believe this was a result of cost cutting at the expense of safety, then again what do I know?
Edited:
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Evitzee
·That's interesting, it still doesn't make sense to me. I understand that the FAA mandate the number of doors based on capacity, but I would imagine that it's a mandated minimum number of doors, I doubt they would reprimand an airline for choosing the exit doors over door plug option if they were flying under capacity. I still believe this was a result of cost cutting at the expense of safety, then again what do I know?
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pdxleaf
··Often mistaken for AI...Yes, I will fly 737 Max. There are many planes besides the 737 Max that use plugs. If i didn't fly the Max because of the plug I should think about not flying any plane that uses a plug.
I am far more concerned about the air traffic control situation. It is not with the controllers themselves, but with outdated hardware and software, as well as needing to hire more personnel. For this, I am more concerned about a Congress that spends its time looking at pictures of penises instead of considering investing in infrastructure.
Did that answer the question?
I am far more concerned about the air traffic control situation. It is not with the controllers themselves, but with outdated hardware and software, as well as needing to hire more personnel. For this, I am more concerned about a Congress that spends its time looking at pictures of penises instead of considering investing in infrastructure.
Did that answer the question?
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Twocats
··Married... with children
He sold the Kansas fuselage assembly plant and contracted them to build fuselages cheaper than Boeing could do themselves. He cut thousands of jobs in Seattle and moved them to non unionised plants in other states and cut cost where he could. Basically he gutted the commercial division for shareholder profit and left the military arm somewhat untouched.
Interestingly prior to Harry there was Phil Condit who had Boeing blood in his veins. An aerospace engineer who rose to the top job in Boeing and repeated the "we talk about problems openly and we never cut corners" mantra that was the Boeing way. Boeing used to be full of the best minds who did it over and over until it was right. Stonecipher changed all of that and now those chickens are coming home to roost. The Max and 787 (and new 777X to a smaller degree) are unmitigated shit shows from serious production quality issues to reliability issues on the flight line. The last good Boeing was the 737NG. I have held CRS approvals for Boeing 707, 727, 737(3-4-5) & 747-200, All were and still are amazing aircraft and very very forgiving of the people operating and maintaining them because Boeing built that forgiveness into them.
Time to draw a line under this as I could go on all night. The current Max issue is a quality control issue, the quick fix is to reactivate the door and reconfigure the seating in the passenger cabin so regular maintenance and inspections can be performed. We learn from mistakes and can be thankful nobody was sucked out of the aircraft on this occasion.
The Max was 3d CAD designed where the 707 was designed with a slide rule and a pencil in 1954. The 707's are still flying in numbers of hundreds with the USAF as KC135.
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Twocats
··Married... with children
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chadpowe11
·My thought as an aircraft mechanic there is zero issues flying on a max8. Shit happening that breaks is way more common then you expect. Although it’s bigger issue with the max it still does not bother me. Max8 is still new so it has a lot of problems to work out. Example I fix dash-8’s it’s not uncommon for major modifications to come out due to faults that has come up recently and these aircraft have been flying for 40 years! Still has its issues.
The plug is most likely do to each country’s regulations some has more safety standards then others. Example I’m in Canada and for years FAA was the only country to have beta back up on there aircraft only is past 10 years it became mandatory in all dash-8 aircraft. This prevented aircraft from going into reverse during flight by placing engines in manual instead of electronic control unit to stop the pitch change on prop.
The plug is most likely do to each country’s regulations some has more safety standards then others. Example I’m in Canada and for years FAA was the only country to have beta back up on there aircraft only is past 10 years it became mandatory in all dash-8 aircraft. This prevented aircraft from going into reverse during flight by placing engines in manual instead of electronic control unit to stop the pitch change on prop.
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pdxleaf
··Often mistaken for AI...Boeing is having a lot of problems right now and they will continue into the future. To understand the current situation you need to go back to the Boeing / MDC merger in 1997ish timeframe. The new combined company was eventually headed by a chap called Harry Stonecipher who had previously been CEO of McDonnell Douglas. He was a ruthless win at all costs business man who cut everything to the bone and peeled back cost where he could. Upon taking the reins of Boeing he started an outsourcing and divestment drive to cut the cost while driving the share price up to the delight of the shareholders.
He sold the Kansas fuselage assembly plant and contracted them to build fuselages cheaper than Boeing could do themselves. He cut thousands of jobs in Seattle and moved them to non unionised plants in other states and cut cost where he could. Basically he gutted the commercial division for shareholder profit and left the military arm somewhat untouched.
Interestingly prior to Harry there was Phil Condit who had Boeing blood in his veins. An aerospace engineer who rose to the top job in Boeing and repeated the "we talk about problems openly and we never cut corners" mantra that was the Boeing way. Boeing used to be full of the best minds who did it over and over until it was right. Stonecipher changed all of that and now those chickens are coming home to roost. The Max and 787 (and new 777X to a smaller degree) are unmitigated shit shows from serious production quality issues to reliability issues on the flight line. The last good Boeing was the 737NG. I have held CRS approvals for Boeing 707, 727, 737(3-4-5) & 747-200, All were and still are amazing aircraft and very very forgiving of the people operating and maintaining them because Boeing built that forgiveness into them.
Time to draw a line under this as I could go on all night. The current Max issue is a quality control issue, the quick fix is to reactivate the door and reconfigure the seating in the passenger cabin so regular maintenance and inspections can be performed. We learn from mistakes and can be thankful nobody was sucked out of the aircraft on this occasion.
The Max was 3d CAD designed where the 707 was designed with a slide rule and a pencil in 1954. The 707's are still flying in numbers of hundreds with the USAF as KC135.
Not disagreeing with overall issues with Boeing management, but doesn't this apply to every plane built by Boeing and not just the Max?
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Makesbelieve
·The two rear openings were plugged because the seating configuration didn't require those two rear openings to have doors. It wasn't cost cutting at the expense of safety.
Ah, ok, I stand corrected. Sorry
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Dan S
·Greed and CYA incompetence are not only ubiquitous but maybe even intrinsic to every big corporation, but they are sure good at marketing. It blows me away that people often point to the business world as some sort of aspirational model of effectiveness and efficiency. Like government should be run like a business or a university should be run like a business, or the military should be run like a business.
Big corporations developed all the BS training, planning, evaluation, and other "processes" that they love so much because they couldn't always count on hiring talented people and had to be able to plug generic employees into important roles. Now somehow people think that this necessary evil is actually a good way to run an enterprise, and so we are all saddled with ridiculous time-wasting activities.
Big corporations developed all the BS training, planning, evaluation, and other "processes" that they love so much because they couldn't always count on hiring talented people and had to be able to plug generic employees into important roles. Now somehow people think that this necessary evil is actually a good way to run an enterprise, and so we are all saddled with ridiculous time-wasting activities.
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Twocats
··Married... with childrenNot disagreeing with overall issues with Boeing management, but doesn't this apply to every plane built by Boeing and not just the Max?
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pdxleaf
··Often mistaken for AI...Only the B737NG, 747-8, 787 and Max have been built under the new Boeing culture post merger. The 737NG was already in production during the merger which is why I say it's still a good aircraft. Every other aircraft was the old Boeing DNA.
The 777 was the first completely CAD designed plane. Wasn't that pre-HQ move?
My main point is it isn't just Boeing management but also lack of FAA oversight. Regulations serve a useful purpose, in spite of a desire to cut regulations and defund the government.
(I'm not saying you agree or disagree, nor am I saying that Boeing senior management doesn't share some of the blame. Hopefully they will be replaced. Just saying it's more than Boeing management. Still, Boeing has had a lot of trouble with their subcontractors, which is the result of management strategy.)
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Tayne
·I have never previosuly made a choice about which commercial airliner to fly on.
Big planes are like buses and trains to me, I don't care who makes them, what engine they have or how they perform I just want to sit down and be taken to my destination.
But I have looked up the list of airlines operating the Max and thankfully I have no plans to get on any of them.
I don't fear the careless mechanic who does the bolts up too tight (or not tight enough), nor the engineer with the decimal point in the wrong place.
The mechanic and the engineer aren't malicious, they don't want to kill you. Their problems will be fixed and likely never repeated.
I fear Corporate Greed becuase Corporate Greed will dance on your grave for a dollar.
Corporate Greed thinks its better to pay off the families of the deceased than to make the fuel tanks not explode.
Coprorate Greed thinks 40 times the allowed pollution limit isperfectly acceptable.
Corporate Greed hides the evidence when the planes crash.
I don't think this will be the last problem with the 737Max.
Big planes are like buses and trains to me, I don't care who makes them, what engine they have or how they perform I just want to sit down and be taken to my destination.
But I have looked up the list of airlines operating the Max and thankfully I have no plans to get on any of them.
I don't fear the careless mechanic who does the bolts up too tight (or not tight enough), nor the engineer with the decimal point in the wrong place.
The mechanic and the engineer aren't malicious, they don't want to kill you. Their problems will be fixed and likely never repeated.
I fear Corporate Greed becuase Corporate Greed will dance on your grave for a dollar.
Corporate Greed thinks its better to pay off the families of the deceased than to make the fuel tanks not explode.
Coprorate Greed thinks 40 times the allowed pollution limit isperfectly acceptable.
Corporate Greed hides the evidence when the planes crash.
I don't think this will be the last problem with the 737Max.
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Twocats
··Married... with childrenThe 777 was the first completely CAD designed plane. Wasn't that pre-HQ move?
My main point is it isn't just Boeing management but also lack of FAA oversight. Regulations serve a useful purpose, in spite of a desire to cut regulations and defund the government.
(I'm not saying you agree or disagree, nor am I saying that Boeing senior management doesn't share some of the blame. Hopefully they will be replaced. Just saying it's more than Boeing management. Still, Boeing has had a lot of trouble with their subcontractors, which is the result of management strategy.)
The FAA are guilty of giving Boeing too much rope. That leash is now very short.
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Omegafanman
·Boeing is having a lot of problems right now and they will continue into the future. To understand the current situation you need to go back to the Boeing / MDC merger in 1997ish timeframe. The new combined company was eventually headed by a chap called Harry Stonecipher who had previously been CEO of McDonnell Douglas. He was a ruthless win at all costs business man who cut everything to the bone and peeled back cost where he could. Upon taking the reins of Boeing he started an outsourcing and divestment drive to cut the cost while driving the share price up to the delight of the shareholders.
He sold the Kansas fuselage assembly plant and contracted them to build fuselages cheaper than Boeing could do themselves. He cut thousands of jobs in Seattle and moved them to non unionised plants in other states and cut cost where he could. Basically he gutted the commercial division for shareholder profit and left the military arm somewhat untouched.
Interestingly prior to Harry there was Phil Condit who had Boeing blood in his veins. An aerospace engineer who rose to the top job in Boeing and repeated the "we talk about problems openly and we never cut corners" mantra that was the Boeing way. Boeing used to be full of the best minds who did it over and over until it was right. Stonecipher changed all of that and now those chickens are coming home to roost. The Max and 787 (and new 777X to a smaller degree) are unmitigated shit shows from serious production quality issues to reliability issues on the flight line. The last good Boeing was the 737NG. I have held CRS approvals for Boeing 707, 727, 737(3-4-5) & 747-200, All were and still are amazing aircraft and very very forgiving of the people operating and maintaining them because Boeing built that forgiveness into them.
Time to draw a line under this as I could go on all night. The current Max issue is a quality control issue, the quick fix is to reactivate the door and reconfigure the seating in the passenger cabin so regular maintenance and inspections can be performed. We learn from mistakes and can be thankful nobody was sucked out of the aircraft on this occasion.
The Max was 3d CAD designed where the 707 was designed with a slide rule and a pencil in 1954. The 707's are still flying in numbers of hundreds with the USAF as KC135.
707 (airport 1970) ….. The instruction book said that was impossible. Joe Patroni: That's one nice thing about the 707. It can do everything BUT read……
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Omegafanman
·As an aside what was the capacity on the plane in this incident? Anybody know how many passengers it could fly?
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Twocats
··Married... with childrenAs an aside what was the capacity on the plane in this incident? Anybody know how many passengers it could fly?
LOPA from the website. This Lopa is far below Max Pax capacity so the door was not required.
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Omegafanman
·https://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel-info/our-aircraft/737-9-max
LOPA from the website. This Lopa is far below Max Pax capacity so the door was not required.
178….. I am sure I read they had 177 passengers on board… so lucky it was an empty seat by the plug.
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Aroxx
··Sets his watchConsidering I ride a motorcycle I probably have no right to be picky in my aircraft choice based on safety.
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