Boeing 737 Max Aircraft - Would You Fly On One?

[Twocats]

Tayne

50,000 defective parts fitted to planes.

Shall we have a whip round to send some flowers to Merle Meyers’ funeral?

Boeings mistake was to paint the parts red and send them to Auburn for scrapping. The correct procedure is to mutilate the part to the point it's obvious to anyone intending to install on an aircraft.

§ 102-33.315 What are the procedures for mutilating unsalvageable aircraft parts?
When mutilating unsalvageable aircraft parts, you must—

(a) Destroy the data plates, remove the serial/lot/part numbers, and cut, crush, grind, melt, burn, or use other means to prevent the parts from being misidentified or used as serviceable aircraft parts. Call your regional FAA Flight Standards District Office for additional guidance;

(b) Ensure that an authorized official of your agency witnesses and documents the mutilation; and

(c) Retain a signed certification and statement of mutilation.

Boeing quality crying about an issue that they could have easily solved by mutilating the parts prior to shipment to Auburn raises red flags for me.

 

[140dave]

dsio

The Boeing Starliner has extended its stay yet again on the ISS due to the helium leaks and multiple RCS thruster failures it experienced during docking.

They are still up there, and now they are talking bringing them home in February!
Some 3 hour tour this turned out to be…

 

[Pastorbottle]

140dave

They are still up there, and now they are talking bringing them home in February!
Some 3 hour tour this turned out to be…

Shit I hope they're getting paid overtime penalty rates And a generous living away from home allowance!

 

[dsio]

140dave

They are still up there, and now they are talking bringing them home in February!
Some 3 hour tour this turned out to be…

At least they have enough sense to not risk their lives on the return trip without being sure that donkey is bug free which is a step in the right direction for Boeing.

Pastorbottle

Shit I hope they're getting paid overtime penalty rates And a generous living away from home allowance!

As a kid I remember our old VL Turbo Calais which made every trip an adventure as you didn’t know if it would overheat, have some electrical gremlins, or fail in some entirely new way each time. This new Starliner is bringing back strong VL Holden memories.

 

[Archer]

On the original topic...

Saw a pilot explaining the whole Max MCAS thing today in a video I stumbled on. According to him it was all about moving the new larger engines forward so they would fit on the plane without having to do a major redesign of landing gear, etc, and the new larger nacelles creating lift in certain climb conditions. He said that the additional lift itself was not a problem, but because the plane flew quite differently because of this, pilots would have to specifically qualify to fly this version on a simulator. Boeing didn’t want this as it might hurt sales, so they used MCAS on the plane, which would apply trim to make it feel like you were flying a regular 737. Apparently the system had been used on some tankers already with no issues.

The system was considered a low safety risk so it didn’t have the same level of scrutiny that other “more important” systems would, and there were flaws. Apparently the trim it applied to the plane was only supposed to happen once, but it could sort of run away and cause what we know now are serious problems. Since it was all supposed to happen in the background it was deemed something that the pilots didn’t need specific training on.

So a workaround for a workaround for a workaround sort of situation...amazing...

 

[pusslicker]

Archer

On the original topic...

Saw a pilot explaining the whole Max MCAS thing today in a video I stumbled on. According to him it was all about moving the new larger engines forward so they would fit on the plane without having to do a major redesign of landing gear, etc, and the new larger nacelles creating lift in certain climb conditions. He said that the additional lift itself was not a problem, but because the plane flew quite differently because of this, pilots would have to specifically qualify to fly this version on a simulator. Boeing didn’t want this as it might hurt sales, so they used MCAS on the plane, which would apply trim to make it feel like you were flying a regular 737. Apparently the system had been used on some tankers already with no issues.

The system was considered a low safety risk so it didn’t have the same level of scrutiny that other “more important” systems would, and there were flaws. Apparently the trim it applied to the plane was only supposed to happen once, but it could sort of run away and cause what we know now are serious problems. Since it was all supposed to happen in the background it was deemed something that the pilots didn’t need specific training on.

So a workaround for a workaround for a workaround sort of situation...amazing...

Good PBS Nova on this subject from a few years ago.

https://www.pbs.org/video/boeings-fatal-flaw-azhye0/

 

[pdxleaf]

Pastorbottle

Shit I hope they're getting paid overtime penalty rates And a generous living away from home allowance!

Buzz Aldrin got $33.31 in travel pay for going to the moon.

I don't remember exactly what Neil Armstrong received but it was similar

 

[ErichPryde]

pdxleaf

Buzz Aldrin got $33.31 in travel pay for going to the moon.

I don't remember exactly what Neil Armstrong received but it was similar

Dang, that's still not much even in today's dollars

 

[kkt]

I'm kind of surprised they got a travel allowance. Their transportation, lodging, and food (such as they were) were provided by NASA and the Navy.

 

[pdxleaf]

kkt

I'm kind of surprised they got a travel allowance. Their transportation, lodging, and food (such as they were) were provided by NASA and the Navy.

Yep, but they still got mileage 😁

 

[vintage hab]

For those still interested In B737 Max 8, there’s a great podcast by Wondery with the whole story of Boeing’s culture change starting in the late 1990s (when they married with McDonnell Douglas) that ultimately led to all the issues.
Check out American Scandal, season 64: Boeing.

dsio

At least they have enough sense to not risk their lives on the return trip without being sure that donkey is bug free which is a step in the right direction for Boeing.

I believe Boeing wanted the astronauts to return on Starliner, but NASA wouldn’t allow it. In the end, Starliner returned safely to earth on Sept 7 but without the crew.

 

[Watch my Whisky]

kkt

I'm kind of surprised they got a travel allowance. Their transportation, lodging, and food (such as they were) were provided by NASA and the Navy.

Actually their allowances were provided by the US taxpayer.

 

[gbesq]

I flew round trip from the U.S. east coast to the west coast last week on a Southwest Max 8. Not the first time and no issues.

 

[Trev]

More fun Boeing issues:
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/26/business/ntsb-urgent-safety-warning-boeing-737s-max/index.html

The National Transportation Safety Board is issuing “urgent safety recommendations” for some Boeing 737s—including the embattled 737 MAX line— warning that critical flight controls could jam.

The independent investigative agency is issuing the warning that an actuator attached to the rudder on some 737 NG and 737 MAX airplanes could fail. The move comes after the NTSB investigated a February incident where the pilots of a United Airlines MAX 8 landing in Newark reported their rudder pedals “stuck” in the neutral position.

 

[JwRosenthal]

In this a situation where shit like this has always happened, we are just far more aware of it now? Or is Boing really doing the most to tank their company?

 

[gbesq]

JwRosenthal

In this a situation where shit like this has always happened, we are just far more aware of it now? Or is Boing really doing the most to tank their company?

The issue highlighted in Trev’s post was confined to 737 models manufactured by Boeing for United Airlines. That being said, the consensus appears to be that Boeing lost its way at some point and started putting profits ahead of quality control and safety. When you’re building commercial airliners where the expectation is that the product must be 99.98% reliable, any slip in quality control is a matter of serious concern.

Edited: Mon. 3:51am

 

[abrod520]

gbesq

The issue highlighted in Trev’s post was confined to 737 models manufactured by Boeing for United Airlines. That being said, the consensus appears to be that Boeing lost its way at some point and started putting profits ahead of quality control and safety. When you’re building commercial airliners where the expectation is that the product must be 99.98% reliable, any slip in quality control is a matter of serious concern.

I seem to remember earlier 737s had some very serious rudder actuator problems that caused a few crashes. Might be thinking of a different model. But that had been resolved by the early 2000s I think

 

[josiahg52]

abrod520

I seem to remember earlier 737s had some very serious rudder actuator problems that caused a few crashes. Might be thinking of a different model. But that had been resolved by the early 2000s I think

United Airlines Flight 585 suffered a rudder hardover and crashed on March 3, 1991 on approach to Colorado Springs Municipal Airport. USAir Flight 427 also suffered a hardover and crashed on approach to Pittsburgh International Airport on Thursday, September 8, 1994. Later, Eastwind Airlines Flight 517 suffered a rudder malfunction that caused a temporary loss of control. In the Eastwind's case, however, the crew was able to regain control and land the aircraft. The issue was eventually found to be a combination of rudder actuator tolerances and thermal shock experienced as the aircraft descended from cruising altitude in preparation for landing.

 

[JwRosenthal]

josiahg52

United Airlines Flight 585 suffered a rudder hardover and crashed on March 3, 1991 on approach to Colorado Springs Municipal Airport. USAir Flight 427 also suffered a hardover and crashed on approach to Pittsburgh International Airport on Thursday, September 8, 1994. Later, Eastwind Airlines Flight 517 suffered a rudder malfunction that caused a temporary loss of control. In the Eastwind's case, however, the crew was able to regain control and land the aircraft. The issue was eventually found to be a combination of rudder actuator tolerances and thermal shock experienced as the aircraft descended from cruising altitude in preparation for landing.

When you think about how many moving parts, how many variables, how many things can go wrong not just mechanically- but when those mechanical things interact with the elements….its amazing we have gotten this far.