So, we all know that as the price of Heuer Carreras and Autavias have skyrocketed (and I have my own opinions on that), a raft of "poor-man's" versions has been dragged along in their wake. It seems every other seller and their uncle is claiming "X brand used Heuer parts!" In some instances, we can confirm this (e.g. Primato, Clebars, Tradition, see On the Dash for more specifics http://www.onthedash.com/chronograph/poor-mans-autavia-primato-73363/). In others, the relationship is more tenuous.

Take, for instance, this recent Ebay auction for a Baylor:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Baylor-chronograph-inverted-panda-1960s-/224052313872?nma=true&si=4%2Bp5DZylLwIsB%2F42jYTIYXvPWy8%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network



Baylor was sold through Zales jewellers. The seller really doubled down on the Heuer connection: "Baylor-branded watches used many of the same parts as the Heuer Autavias and Carreras of the late 1960s. It is even rumored that as Heuer began to shift its focus toward automatic chronographs with new cases and dials, Zales was able to snatch up parts for pennies on the dollar."

Now, admittedly, the dial is _very_ similar to the Autavia 2446, and even more appealing, in some respects (e.g. the lollipop sweep second). But that's pretty much where the similarity ends. The case, with its narrow lugs and screwdown, single-step caseback, has more in common with the Wittnauers and Croton Nivadas from this period (the 2446Cs I've seen either had rounded snapbacks or double-stepped screwbacks in the 2nd execution--Heuer folks can feel free to chime in here). Most importantly, the Baylor sports the Landeron 349 rather than the Valjoux 72 found in the 2446.

Not familiar with the L349? Why would you be, it's a pretty rare movement. And by "rare" I don't mean "desirable," I mean just uncommon, difficult to source parts for, and expensive to service because of it. Apparently, and I have this from my watch guy, Landeron made alterations during production, so often parts do not interchange between this and more common Landeron movements (e.g. the 149).

And here we arrive at the real problem with this piece, which is that the 12 hour subdial only resets to 3 o'clock. The seller, to his credit, fully admits this, and says it has been this way since his purchase of it. Less to his credit, and likely done in ignorance, was that it merely needs "re-centering by a professional." Again, from my watch guy, the warning, specifically, "if the hour subdial doesn't reset to zero, avoid it!"

I even went to the lengths of sharing this information with the seller, as fair warning that if he passed this off as a minor issue and it turned out to be (as anticipated) a much more expensive repair, he might have a very unhappy buyer indeed.

Of course, hope springs eternal, and someone bought it for £1700. When I think of all the amazing, nearly flawless chronos from decent mid-range makers (e.g. Wakmann, Croton, Wittnauer, Le Jour, Yema, Chronosport, Ollech Wajs) with better movements that one could get from OF members, or elsewhere, for that price, it really made me shake my head in exasperation. I _hope_ I'm wrong. I _hope_ it is a cheap and minor repair and the buyer takes great joy in what is, when all is said and done, still a very attractive piece on the outside. I, in the meantime, breathe a sigh of relief in that, at least this one time, I chose discretion as the better part of valour!

 

Well to be fair, if the hand doesn't reset to 12, the most common reason is that the hand needs to be reset. Can I ask what specifically your watchmaker believes the issue is, and why it's a big enough deal to avoid the watch if it has this problem?

Cheers, Al

 

Good question. His assumption was that if it was an easy repair, then either the original seller or the subsequent buyer and current seller would have had it done and dusted. My reason to avoid it had less to do with that issue in particular, since I always assume that any chrono I buy on Ebay is going to require at least an ordinary service. and more that I am not a huge fan of paying a premium to get a "poor man's X" as opposed a mid-range chrono that has a better movement and isn't aspiring to be anything more than what it is. But taste it taste, no?

 

A faded poor man Heuer ( Baylor )

 

For me the bigger reason to avoid the watch would be the aforementioned scarcity of parts. I have passed on some lovely watches because donors weren’t cheap and parts were NLA. Sustainably is a big part of watch ownership for me (wearing, not just collecting). So if parts can’t be acquired for a known problem- it makes it less attractive to me.

 

I think I actually saw this one on the 'bay, skimmed it, and passed not just because I found the price high but as others have said - that movement may be damn hard to properly service vs the Valjoux.

 

Well, you would be surprised at what people let go on watches, so not sure that reasoning is something I would be quite as strong in saying "avoid it" as your watchmaker does. I was more under the impression this came from actual knowledge of a serious issue that may be there that specifically causes this problem.

The 349 has a different hour recorder set-up than say the 321/861/1861, but it's really not terribly complicated, so not a ton to go wrong there.

As you say, parts are not easy to find due the limited production of this caliber, so it would be a risk, but IMO not a big enough one to avoid the watch if it was something you really wanted.

Cheers, Al

 

My watchmaker has actually had an easier time finding parts for my 30+ year old Rolexes than for my Zodiacs or 40’s Landeron Chronos. Sometimes these “bargain” watches can be frustrating when they have issues.

 

Good to know, for future reference. I do like those Baylors, aesthetically, the grey and orange with the lollipop is very appealing. If I was to go for a PMA/PMC, though, I think I would still prefer a Valjoux movement, both from personal preference and for the reasons that @JwRosenthal outlines. My watchmaker can be quite the curmudgeon, admittedly, but he does have an Aladdin's Cave of parts, so when even he says "it's going to be difficult and expensive to source parts for this one," I tend to listen carefully!

 

I won't touch a Zodiac anymore...sealed mainspring barrels that are NLA and the originals are nearly impossible to open without damage to replace the spring. So you either spends months looking for a barrel, or live with shitty performance using the existing barrel that hasn't been opened since the 60's...no thanks. Some Longines autos are the same, plus some Bulovas, and there are others too.

Interesting you mention Rolex - the newer 3235 has a very flimsy mainspring barrel, as they decreased the wall thickness to fit a longer spring in to increase the power reserve. These can't be opened and the spring replaced without damage, so decades after brands went away from sealed barrels, some are going back!

But the Rolex boys will tell you they are the best!!!!!!

 

Valjoux is definitely the safer bet overall. Parts are easy to find on those.

 

Bulova’s I don’t have a problem with- even if they are DOA- it’s all about cosmetic condition with those as parter watches are abundant (for most models) and they did the same movement across many models- same with Benrus and Elgin.
Zodiac- I had to learn the hard way and have spent almost as much on parts as I did the watches. They were cosmetically excellent and “running”, but barley and getting them back up to snuff has been a labor of love- like a perverse treasure hunt.

I have a UG micro-rotor out at the watchmaker currently- he says he has a parts movement...let’s just hope it’s the right parts

 

And your mention of the sealed barrel reminds me of when I brought my old Jeep to my mechanic (who usually only does Euro imports), and almost jumped up and down with joy when he saw grease nipples on the axles- he was thrilled to be able to use his grease gun again.

 

This is good info. Hey @Archer , as an expert do you ever need to make your own parts to repair a watch? Does that still happen?

 

Yes. For more complex parts that I would not make often, there are people who specialize is custom parts fabrication. Years ago I got this Zenith pocket watch in...note the handy bodge that was done by another "watchmaker" to keep the ratchet wheel in place:



The reason for this was that the ratchet wheel screw was snapped off in the barrel arbor:



I tried drilling the old screw out, but it was hard and the carbide drill I was using broke. Can't dissolve with alum, so I was out of options to use this again. Had a guy I know make a new one for me, in far less time than it would have taken me, and it worked perfectly:



He also made the screw.

I'll do simple things - for example I just repaired the automatic bridge on an ETA 7753 - this post was worn pretty badly:





This should look like this (this is from a new bridge):



This post is not sold separately, and a new bridge is around $250. So I measured the diameter of the new one:



Pressed the old one out:







Made a sketch:



Off to the lathe - stock I used:





Turning:



About to cut it off:



Pressing the new post into the bridge:





Done:



I'll charge some labour for this, but it saves the watch owner $200 in the end.

This wasn't really "necessary" as I could have just bought and installed a new bridge, and surely this is what I service center would have done. But I try not to be just a parts swapper, even though brands often make it difficult to be anything but that. I will often repair things that brands would simply replace.

Cheers, Al

 

First of all, I'd be curious to hear your opinions on Carreras and Autavias.

Secondly, I think it's worth drawing the line between what many Heuer collectors would acknowledge as a "Poor Man's _____" and what eBay sellers market their watch as. This is mainly for posterity / anyone who comes across this thread and is drawn to the idea of buying one.

Take for example this Benrus (http://www.onthedash.com/chronograph/poor-mans-autavia-benrus-73463/). It is, quite literally, an Autavia that was re-branded and used all original Heuer parts and designs. The case, movement, and even dial/hands/bezel are identical to the original Autavias that were being sold simultaneously. This fits the "Poor Man's Autavia" label correctly, and while it's more expensive than the watch that kicked off this thread, it's still a hefty discount to the actual Autavia it so closely resembles.

Now we shift to the OP's watch in question, which has been labeled a "Poor Man's Autavia" incorrectly. In reality, and as the OP pointed out mid-post, it is essentially a Nivada Grenchen / Croton (see below). Notice the same bezel, the tachymetre scale is the same, as is the general design of the hands. Just because a watch has an inverse panda dial and three registers, it does not make it a Rindt Autavia, and in this case, the price being asked for the watch on eBay is essentially at parity with a decent example of the Nivada Grenchen / Croton chronographs.


And just so the differences are crystal clear, here is an actual "Rindt" Autavia - ostensibly what the watch on eBay has been called a "Poor Man's" version of, despite sharing no similar parts and differing in many design areas.

 

Yup, exactly. And let's not forget that the Croton CSAD, which you can get for _less_ than the Baylor, will likely have a nice Valjoux 92 movement inside rather than the L349. But hey, to each their own!