Baylor "Poor Man's Autavia"--a cautionary tale

So, we all know that as the price of Heuer Carreras and Autavias have skyrocketed (and I have my own opinions on that), a raft of "poor-man's" versions has been dragged along in their wake. It seems every other seller and their uncle is claiming "X brand used Heuer parts!" In some instances, we can confirm this (e.g. Primato, Clebars, Tradition, see On the Dash for more specifics http://www.onthedash.com/chronograph/poor-mans-autavia-primato-73363/). In others, the relationship is more tenuous.

Take, for instance, this recent Ebay auction for a Baylor:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Baylor-chronograph-inverted-panda-1960s-/224052313872?nma=true&si=4%2Bp5DZylLwIsB%2F42jYTIYXvPWy8%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



Baylor was sold through Zales jewellers. The seller really doubled down on the Heuer connection: "Baylor-branded watches used many of the same parts as the Heuer Autavias and Carreras of the late 1960s. It is even rumored that as Heuer began to shift its focus toward automatic chronographs with new cases and dials, Zales was able to snatch up parts for pennies on the dollar."

Now, admittedly, the dial is _very_ similar to the Autavia 2446, and even more appealing, in some respects (e.g. the lollipop sweep second). But that's pretty much where the similarity ends. The case, with its narrow lugs and screwdown, single-step caseback, has more in common with the Wittnauers and Croton Nivadas from this period (the 2446Cs I've seen either had rounded snapbacks or double-stepped screwbacks in the 2nd execution--Heuer folks can feel free to chime in here). Most importantly, the Baylor sports the Landeron 349 rather than the Valjoux 72 found in the 2446.

Not familiar with the L349? Why would you be, it's a pretty rare movement. And by "rare" I don't mean "desirable," I mean just uncommon, difficult to source parts for, and expensive to service because of it. Apparently, and I have this from my watch guy, Landeron made alterations during production, so often parts do not interchange between this and more common Landeron movements (e.g. the 149).

And here we arrive at the real problem with this piece, which is that the 12 hour subdial only resets to 3 o'clock. The seller, to his credit, fully admits this, and says it has been this way since his purchase of it. Less to his credit, and likely done in ignorance, was that it merely needs "re-centering by a professional." Again, from my watch guy, the warning, specifically, "if the hour subdial doesn't reset to zero, avoid it!"

I even went to the lengths of sharing this information with the seller, as fair warning that if he passed this off as a minor issue and it turned out to be (as anticipated) a much more expensive repair, he might have a very unhappy buyer indeed.

Of course, hope springs eternal, and someone bought it for £1700. When I think of all the amazing, nearly flawless chronos from decent mid-range makers (e.g. Wakmann, Croton, Wittnauer, Le Jour, Yema, Chronosport, Ollech Wajs) with better movements that one could get from OF members, or elsewhere, for that price, it really made me shake my head in exasperation. I _hope_ I'm wrong. I _hope_ it is a cheap and minor repair and the buyer takes great joy in what is, when all is said and done, still a very attractive piece on the outside. I, in the meantime, breathe a sigh of relief in that, at least this one time, I chose discretion as the better part of valour!

Good question. His assumption was that if it was an easy repair, then either the original seller or the subsequent buyer and current seller would have had it done and dusted. My reason to avoid it had less to do with that issue in particular, since I always assume that any chrono I buy on Ebay is going to require at least an ordinary service. and more that I am not a huge fan of paying a premium to get a "poor man's X" as opposed a mid-range chrono that has a better movement and isn't aspiring to be anything more than what it is. But taste it taste, no?

A faded poor man Heuer ( Baylor )

I think I actually saw this one on the 'bay, skimmed it, and passed not just because I found the price high but as others have said - that movement may be damn hard to properly service vs the Valjoux.

Good to know, for future reference. I do like those Baylors, aesthetically, the grey and orange with the lollipop is very appealing. If I was to go for a PMA/PMC, though, I think I would still prefer a Valjoux movement, both from personal preference and for the reasons that @JwRosenthal outlines. My watchmaker can be quite the curmudgeon, admittedly, but he does have an Aladdin's Cave of parts, so when even he says "it's going to be difficult and expensive to source parts for this one," I tend to listen carefully!

First of all, I'd be curious to hear your opinions on Carreras and Autavias.

Secondly, I think it's worth drawing the line between what many Heuer collectors would acknowledge as a "Poor Man's _____" and what eBay sellers market their watch as. This is mainly for posterity / anyone who comes across this thread and is drawn to the idea of buying one.

Take for example this Benrus (http://www.onthedash.com/chronograph/poor-mans-autavia-benrus-73463/). It is, quite literally, an Autavia that was re-branded and used all original Heuer parts and designs. The case, movement, and even dial/hands/bezel are identical to the original Autavias that were being sold simultaneously. This fits the "Poor Man's Autavia" label correctly, and while it's more expensive than the watch that kicked off this thread, it's still a hefty discount to the actual Autavia it so closely resembles.

Now we shift to the OP's watch in question, which has been labeled a "Poor Man's Autavia" incorrectly. In reality, and as the OP pointed out mid-post, it is essentially a Nivada Grenchen / Croton (see below). Notice the same bezel, the tachymetre scale is the same, as is the general design of the hands. Just because a watch has an inverse panda dial and three registers, it does not make it a Rindt Autavia, and in this case, the price being asked for the watch on eBay is essentially at parity with a decent example of the Nivada Grenchen / Croton chronographs.


And just so the differences are crystal clear, here is an actual "Rindt" Autavia - ostensibly what the watch on eBay has been called a "Poor Man's" version of, despite sharing no similar parts and differing in many design areas.

Yup, exactly. And let's not forget that the Croton CSAD, which you can get for _less_ than the Baylor, will likely have a nice Valjoux 92 movement inside rather than the L349. But hey, to each their own!