Community Stories

Are members invested in Bitcoin/crypto?

Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Correct.

Let me give you a simpler analogy:

You want to warm up a sausage to eat. You only need to burn 1 piece of wood to warm up your sausage. You burn down an entire forest, to warm up that one sausage. Sure, your sausage got warmed up, but all that energy was used for nothing (aka wasted -> my point).

Thats how Bitcoin works. Lets further the analogy from one of your own articles :

upload_2021-4-2_11-24-34.png


You want to warm up a sausage to eat. There are 1000000 people who light a fire, for you. You only use the first fire that reaches the optimal temperature (and they are the only ones who you pay for burning wood). A huge waste.

Sure, gold is also a waste. The biggest difference is (and why I don't agree with using it to justify the energy waste of Bitcoin) there is no other option with gold, and there is no exponential increase of gold miners all adding to the waste (like in the early days of the gold rush). Edit: there is also no competition, making gold mining ‘faster’ and wasting more power. Gold mines who have rights to the ground containing gold are the only people doing mining on that ground, at their rate and fixed costs etc.

I also don't agree that this is the only way to enforce integrity of a system (the author claims this is why the means are justified - they are not). With Crypto in general, there are infinite other options to do it better/more-efficiently that only require good imagination/ideas/engineers/software...and thats what is currently happening in other spaces.
Well yeah you could grab that out of the article that’s cool I think what satoshi predictions back in 2010 have come true, I’ll copy and paste that one

The utility of the exchanges made possible by Bitcoin will far exceed the cost of electricity used. Therefore, not having Bitcoin is a net waste,”
 
eugeneandresson
Posts
5,059
Likes
15,582
Walrus Walrus
The utility of the exchanges made possible by Bitcoin

Could you elaborate on this please? Ie ‘utility’ of this particular crypto...
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Could you elaborate on this please? Ie ‘utility’ of this particular crypto...
Do you own or are involved in crypto anyway? Have you ever read the white paper? Are you familiar with anything beyond its power usage? Just curious as I’ve been involved in the peripheral of crypto, meaning I’m no expert or anything, since 2015 or 16 so I’ve been able to see it’s many ups, downs, issues and adoption. If you feel it’s inherently “bad” due to its power consumption I am fine with that. I tried putting up a couple links that went into its power consumption and what’s going on with it helping people around the world. You did pick out a part to reinforce your thoughts on power which is fine
 
eugeneandresson
Posts
5,059
Likes
15,582
Walrus Walrus
Do you own or are involved in crypto anyway? Have you ever read the white paper? Are you familiar with anything beyond its power usage?

Indeed...hence my honest question for you to elaborate on the ‘utility’ of Bitcoin in particular. I am genuinely curious as to how you perceive it’s ‘utility’ a justification of the means (which is what you stated in response to my analogy), that’s all.
 
eugeneandresson
Posts
5,059
Likes
15,582
Walrus Walrus
I tried putting up a couple links that went into its power consumption and what’s going on with it helping people around the world.

One of which was 12 years old (and things have changed dramatically since then). The other which had so much hyperbole and so many disagreeable statements, I don't care to counter every point.

For example :

"How could this much energy be justified? And what will bitcoin consume when a billion people are using it? "

Its not justified (only for rich folk to store their 'digital gold'). Billions of people are not and will not use it...because it doesn't really have any utility (other than sending X-value from A to B...thats the only 'utility' it has)...it will never be used as it was intended (the perceived value is so high, the transaction speeds are so slow, if a Billion people used it in a day the network would probably crash). But it did pave the way for others...

Another example : "The work performed requires massive amounts of processing power contributed by miners all over the world, running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This processing power requires energy. For context, at 75 exahashes per second, the bitcoin network currently consumes approximately 7-8 gigawatts of power, which translates to ~$9 million per day (or ~$3.3 billion per year) of energy at a marginal cost of 5 cents per kWh (rough estimates). Based on national averages in the U.S., the bitcoin network consumes as much power as approximately 6 million homes. Yeah, it is definitely a lot of power, but it is also what secures and backs the bitcoin network."

That is utterly retarded (you have to agree!). My response to this was...

eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
I also don't agree that this is the only way to enforce integrity of a system (the author claims this is why the means are justified - they are not). With Crypto in general, there are infinite other options to do it better/more-efficiently that only require good imagination/ideas/engineers/software...and thats what is currently happening in other spaces.

Etc etc etc.

To clarify, we are speaking specifically about Bitcoin (and not crypto in general). The solution is not Bitcoin (as the author tries to state), but rather thousands of other newer cryptos that have solved these problems and have added actual utility (enough to replace the banking system).

Walrus Walrus
You did pick out a part to reinforce your thoughts on power which is fine

Incorrect. I picked out the layman-description of how 'bitcoin' works which is still somewhat abstract, and gave an analogy everyone can understand, which should be enough to make folk who don't understand (because I don't think most folk do), understand, and realize for themselves how retarded it is, and why 99% of the 'massive power' consumption is a waste. Or that was my goal...

To be clear : I am all for crypto and I have nothing against Bitcoin...
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
One of which was 12 years old (and things have changed dramatically since then). The other which had so much hyperbole and so many disagreeable statements, I don't care to counter every point.

For example :

"How could this much energy be justified? And what will bitcoin consume when a billion people are using it? "

Its not justified (only for rich folk to store their 'digital gold'). Billions of people are not and will not use it...because it doesn't really have any utility (other than sending X-value from A to B...thats the only 'utility' it has)...it will never be used as it was intended (the perceived value is so high, the transaction speeds are so slow, if a Billion people used it in a day the network would probably crash). But it did pave the way for others...

Another example : "The work performed requires massive amounts of processing power contributed by miners all over the world, running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This processing power requires energy. For context, at 75 exahashes per second, the bitcoin network currently consumes approximately 7-8 gigawatts of power, which translates to ~$9 million per day (or ~$3.3 billion per year) of energy at a marginal cost of 5 cents per kWh (rough estimates). Based on national averages in the U.S., the bitcoin network consumes as much power as approximately 6 million homes. Yeah, it is definitely a lot of power, but it is also what secures and backs the bitcoin network."

That is utterly retarded (you have to agree!). My response to this was...



Etc etc etc.

To clarify, we are speaking specifically about Bitcoin (and not crypto in general). The solution is not Bitcoin (as the author tries to state), but rather thousands of other newer cryptos that have solved these problems and have added actual utility (enough to replace the banking system).



Incorrect. I picked out the layman-description of how 'bitcoin' works which is still somewhat abstract, and gave an analogy everyone can understand, which should be enough to make folk who don't understand (because I don't think most folk do), understand, and realize for themselves how retarded it is, and why 99% of the 'massive power' consumption is a waste. Or that was my goal...

To be clear : I am all for crypto and I have nothing against Bitcoin...
Oh your all for crypto you have nothing against bitcoin well that wraps it up right there glad we agreed hope it’s a good Easter for you
 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
This conversation never goes anywhere. Why try to convince people that disruptive new technology will change the way the world does business? People open to change will position themselves to their benefit, and everyone else can adapt later for better or worse.

Regarding the tax situation, there are several tax software products that make it easy. Enter your wallet addresses and it crunches it all up for you. You may need to classify some gains and expenses, but it’s not difficult or especially time consuming. I have no sympathy for anyone who tries to cheat the tax system. If they’ve been in crypto for more than six months, I can’t imagine how they wouldn’t be sitting on massive gains.
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
Observer Observer
This conversation never goes anywhere. Why try to convince people that disruptive new technology will change the way the world does business? People open to change will position themselves to their benefit, and everyone else can adapt later for better or worse.

Regarding the tax situation, there are several tax software products that make it easy. Enter your wallet addresses and it crunches it all up for you. You may need to classify some gains and expenses, but it’s not difficult or especially time consuming. I have no sympathy for anyone who tries to cheat the tax system. If they’ve been in crypto for more than six months, I can’t imagine how they wouldn’t be sitting on massive gains.
Ya I’m glad it’s over I never said btc was a perfect thing and I agree the energy usage is something that is on the con side. I mean what else can I say. I’m not a bitcoin apologist not can I teach anyone anything. I love open minded conversations about things but damn man. I will say this, I really don’t purchase much crypto anymore, got a little stellar, a little cardano and I have no problem admitting I bought this crypto DAI by mistake. Yup didn’t mean to do it. Kind of funny luckily I’m talking a very small sum of money so it’s not a “freak out mistake” but this DAI pays 2.0 apy and a little ticker appears next to your holdings showing it increasing every .25 seconds. Weird but that’s what they do. Are you familiar with DAI at all? I mean I’m gonna look it up but it’s too late to do DD when you bought it in error. Interesting seeing so many coins doing this in one way or another now. I just look at many of these altcoins as things that could disappear.
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
Oh disregard I just realized i didn’t make a mistake. I was looking for maker DAO just realized DAI is the proper coin I thought it was DAO. The only reason I got in was Vitalik spoke highly of it, perhaps I’ll chalk that up to fomo but that’s it I’m not chasing alt coins I’ll leave that to the traders. I’m considering maker itself but I have a lot more reading to do
Edited:
 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
It almost doesn’t matter what you buy. I’ve only been in since last summer and only one token has dropped in value. I have two that are up almost a hundred percent, around twenty up mostly around 5-800%, and a few up well over 1000%. I quit trying to convince anyone about anything. The tech is fascinating and fantastic. I’m running some validators at home that use as much juice as a couple lightbulbs and they pay every day. Got into an incentivized stakenet for a new dex running on Polkadot paying 50% apy until mainnet launch. I won’t go on and on, but I’ll say that it’s more rewarding than just about anything else I’ve done that could qualify as work.

The only thing missing is an 18k jumbo from the ’40s, great condition, nice patina... 😀
 
eugeneandresson
Posts
5,059
Likes
15,582
Walrus Walrus
Oh your all for crypto you have nothing against bitcoin well that wraps it up right there glad we agreed hope it’s a good Easter for you

And I sincerely hope you now understand what I meant when I said this (which I did not feel you did, based on your responses which lead us down the road to this dialog). Thanks and Happy Easter back to you and yours too 👍
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
Well I know this is about bitcoin but I think we should all take a minute to clap for eth and Vitalik success

 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
Vitalik has to be the king of the nerds. Nobody even approaches his level.
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
Observer Observer
Vitalik has to be the king of the nerds. Nobody even approaches his level.
I have no idea why you would say something like that
 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
Walrus Walrus
I have no idea why you would say something like that
Do we even want to know more about his wristwatch?
 
Walrus
Posts
10,644
Likes
51,850
Observer Observer
Do we even want to know more about his wristwatch?
Why you got info, I am curious. I actually read and listen to his technical explanations as frankly I find him fascinating, he is on another realm. Perhaps I grasp 10% of some of his stuff. He created the most used blockchain at what? 20 years old? I know I’ve read it I just don’t recall off hand. Eth biggest risk, or one of them, is probably key man factor. Anyway drifted off there you got the scoop on his watches, he obviously could afford whatever the hec he wanted but I don’t think he is overly concerned with such things.
 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
Walrus Walrus
Why you got info, I am curious. I actually read and listen to his technical explanations as frankly I find him fascinating, he is on another realm. Perhaps I grasp 10% of some of his stuff. He created the most used blockchain at what? 20 years old? I know I’ve read it I just don’t recall off hand. Eth biggest risk, or one of them, is probably key man factor. Anyway drifted off there you got the scoop on his watches, he obviously could afford whatever the hec he wanted but I don’t think he is overly concerned with such things.
Aside from the brilliance, I appreciate that he doesn’t care about the trappings of wealth, the fact that he won’t shy away from a verbal altercation, the unicorn tshirts... he’s as comfortable in his own skin as anyone can be. I’d like to see any ETH detractor square off with him, but they all seem to know better.
 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
...and something tells me he doesn’t share our tastes in timepieces.
43CEE2AD-8F9A-422E-8187-42B96BFE8484.jpeg
 
ReturnOfUltraman
Posts
1,158
Likes
8,014
Speaking of ETH, I’m pretty happy that it’s back above $2,000 and holding steady. What felt like an eternity, which was only six weeks, of hovering between $1,600-$1,850, we finally get past the $2,000 wall. That’s a pretty big win, in my opinion. With positive news breaking out almost weekly, I’m very bullish for a large jump heading into the summer (particularly in July). Fingers crossed!
 
Observer
Posts
807
Likes
2,108
Prices continue to rise. Interesting news that Visa will be settling USDC transactions on the Ethereum blockchain soon.

Crypto’s just about mainstream now.
 
1111 More Posts...
Sign up or log in to reply...