Dear members,

My brother knows the director of a famous Dutch museum and he told him about my watch hobby and the discussions we have on the forum if a dial, case, etc is legit or not. The director was intrigued about this and asked if we are willing to visit one of the conservators of the museum to examine my watches (3d microscope, material determination, etc). She is specialized in metals, etc. Normally they only do old antique.

We are going to look if it's possible to determine if a dial is a redial or not. One of the things they want to investigate is if you can determine how old dial lacqer is and if it fits with the year of production. But they also are going to examine what kind of materials were used.

Luckily I have a lot of redials because of my total incapacity to judge correctly but maybe some members have specific questions they want to ask which I can bring to the table.

Sorry for my horrible english...

I'm going to start with this one...

 

Example: how can you determine if a watch was relumed and are the methods used on the forum, like geiger counters, valid or not?

 

A watchmaker I know has a stash of vintage radium, and I've heard there are relumers with access to vintage tritium---it's getting harder every day to distinguish real from fake. The notion of determining the age of the dial lacquer is really intriguing though. If an expert can tell the difference between 50-year-old lacquer and new lacquer that's been baked in an oven, that would be cool.

 

Keep them coming! By the way, with the 3d microscope they can see (I think) layers of lacquer, etc, so maybe even when somebody uses old tritium you can still see it was later applied than the year of production. Interesting question!

 

How would that work? Even from the factory wasn't the lume applied after the dial lacquer?

 

@Shabbaz - good choice to start with a known refinished dial.

Yes, but the lume would have been applied very soon after the lacquer. If the dial was relumed, it would be MUCH later, as in decades.

 

I get that but how does that help with dating?

If they're using a microscope to identify the properties of vintage vs modern or aged vs new lacquer, this won't help with lume which will be a completely different material, with different properties.

It would only work if a layer of lacquer was absent/new atop the lume, but seeing as this was never the case it proves nothing either way.

 

I'm not sure what they can see and what kind of methods/machines they will use do determine if a watch is authentic. The 18th of June I have a appointment so than I know more.

 

Very interesting! I've often wondered why more museums (other than the corporate ones) don't take an interest in watches. From a museum professional's point of view, the way that connoisseurship is done on OF is very like the way connoisseurship of paintings, prints, drawings, furniture etc used to work before it became heavily technologized over the past few decades. Dutch museums really led (and lead) the way on this. They are probably wondering if this is a new field they can apply their skills to.

I would like to know what specific materials and processes the conservator is looking for, and what methods of analysis are employed. Also, if this ever turns into something publishable, I would love to hear about that.

 

Only plausible on the watch they are looking at after looking at a original specimen.
Quiet easy for most here to see a redial, and the ones that would benifit from it like auction houses don't give a rats

Mrs STANDY being a entomologist and already having a great microscope that she uses to dissect moth genatalia for Identification of species ( and you thought a bees dick was small ) has been doing this for me for years

 

The luminous powder is mixed with a "binder" material, and that is usually a form of lacquer. If one could determine if vintage lume uses a different type of lacquer than modern lume does, then possibly you could determine if the lacquer used is modern, even if the powder is not...

 

How interesting.

 

Good point. Of course they will have to be able to distinguish between old and new lacquer, not just various types of period lacquer.

An interesting investigation....

 

I don't know what methods they will apply, but to make real progress on this, spectral analysis will most likely be necessary, (e.g. X-ray fluorescence, Raman microscopy/spectroscopy). Possibly they have these tools available, since I believe they are now the gold standard for non-destructive art analysis.

 

We’re kind of approaching the zenith of watch nerd geekery with this but I’ll follow this thread with interest.

There is a school if though which says that if the relume is so good that you can’t tell, should it affect value? Clearly it should as you never know when a readily available test may materialise.

 

Great thread and idea What about cases? With all this Rolex skulduggery of rebuilding overly polished cases to reshape the lugs and crown guards, would it be possible to determine if parts of the case were added later? Ie maybe there is a difference in the alloy, or the welding temperature would affect the structure in a visible or detectable way...

 

So anyway, for my research I'm going to need a couple of 2915's, 2998's and well... let's throw in a sub 6204. Just send me a PM and I will give you my adress...

 

So I went to the museum. It was very interesting but also a bit dissapointing. I thought they could see layers of laquer with some sort of 3d scope but this wan't the case. We only took a look with a regular telescope but I have my samsung with which I can do the same. They were really interested how Omega applied text on a dial. They thought some sort of template was used on the dial. But they were wondering which methods omega used to apply text on the dial. And they were also interested if the dials were made in the same factory or if subcontractors also made dials for omega. They said they can determine if laquer or lume was later applied, but they said they have to take the dial out of the case to determine this. So nothing new... Sorry.. But we still have the pictures...