Another Omega 30mm (Newbee Question Part Deux)

PaulHelmuth · Dec 25, 2019

I know this is going to overlap a bit with my first thread, but wanted to go ahead and post.

Not surprisingly - I did find another Omega to love (but that's for my third thread). AND, I found a third. Another 30 mm to see what I could make out of it.

This one is pretty rough in just about all aspects, but was acquired for very little $$$ (just over 200 USD). I figure the spare parts from the movement (assuming they are good) would be worth that.

According to the Omega web site, this if from their 1960 International collection. And the serial # on the movement appears to date from 1959 (based on the references that I have seen). It's reference number is 14713-3.

Here are the auction photos (taken by the seller)...

I warned you - pretty rough. But the movement looked like it might have some usable parts. So, I bid, and "won" (if you can call that winning 😁)

As you can see this is a 268 - as opposed a 266 (from my first post). But I believe all parts are common to both other than the balance. But I'll leave that for the experts to confirm or correct.

I thought I'd get a shot on the timegrapher before I started. I was expecting bad - and it didn't disappoint...

I adjusted the regulator to get the trace going horizontally (at least I was able to do that). And as you can see, the graph looks like the closing credits to Star Wars. Complete with poor amplitude and huge beat error. But it does "run".

So - that's our (my) starting condition.

I didn't take step-by-step disassembly pics. But I have taken step-by-step on the reassembly. I will post those in the near future. But first, I have a few pics of the one thing that I know to be a problem. Thanks to @Archer in my first post.

Most everything looks pretty good to my (novice) eye. Except for a lot of gum in the balance jewels - and these divots in the end-stones...

[in this first pic you can see the divot (worn in by the balance staff) - but not very well - but at least the color is decent]

In this shot, the divot is much more visible - but the rest of the exposure is terrible. I'm not very happy with the camera (and software) that I got for my microscope - but I didn't spend a bunch of money - and I suppose that's what I get for not spending a bunch of money.

So - in my lesson from @Archer in my first thread - I know that these end-stones should be replaced. Normally anything to do with a jewel would scare me to death - but it seems that the end-stones sit on the "hole-jewels" (not sure what the proper name is) - and therefore I believe replacing them should just be a matter of finding the correct size (and maybe shape?).

Hopefully that's the case - but will wait to hear what the experts have to say on this.

Again - wishing everyone a joyous holiday and all the best for 2020.

-Paul

Dan S · Dec 25, 2019

The condition issues are apparent, but for what it's worth, this looks like an honest watch, likely all original with the possible exception of the crown.

Archer · Dec 25, 2019

PaulHelmuth
As you can see this is a 268 - as opposed a 266 (from my first post). But I believe all parts are common to both other than the balance. But I'll leave that for the experts to confirm or correct.

Hi Paul,

People often do think that this family shares a lot parts, and they do, but not as many as is often assumed. Both of yours are based on the Cal. 260, but the 266 and 268 do have a number of parts that are different from each other.

As you noted the balance is the most obvious, as this has a smooth balance (no screws). This of course means the parts of the balance are different as well, so the balance wheel, balance spring, staff...

But in addition there are a few other parts that are different between the 266 and 268:

- wheel train bridge
- center wheel
- setting lever
- setting lever spring
- mainspring
- barrel arbor
- barrel drum

PaulHelmuth
So - in my lesson from @Archer in my first thread - I know that these end-stones should be replaced. Normally anything to do with a jewel would scare me to death - but it seems that the end-stones sit on the "hole-jewels" (not sure what the proper name is) - and therefore I believe replacing them should just be a matter of finding the correct size (and maybe shape?).

Hopefully that's the case - but will wait to hear what the experts have to say on this.

Again - wishing everyone a joyous holiday and all the best for 2020.

-Paul

Yes the balance jewels consist of the cap jewel and the hole jewel in commonly used terms. Omega refers to the hole jewel as the "in-setting"

Not sure if you need both cap jewels (upper and lower) but the the part number for the balance side is:

72201001343 | CAP JEWEL FOR BALANCE UPPER

Unfortunately this is a discontinued part, and Omega no longer has a replacement available, so you will have to look for it on the open market.

Looking at some old Incabloc charts, it appears that the top stone (dessus) is Incabloc part #121.11, so you may be able to find it under the Incabloc number.

For the lower cap jewel, it is also discontinued, but Omega has a replacement for it - it's actually from the modern Cal. 1120:

722112070900 | CAP JEWEL, BALANCE BRIDGE SIDE

Yes it says it's for the balance side, but that's on the Cal. 1120, and on the 268 it's used on the main plate (lower) side.

Hope this helps, and happy holidays!

Cheers, Al

PaulHelmuth · Dec 25, 2019

Dan S
The condition issues are apparent, but for what it's worth, this looks like an honest watch, likely all original with the possible exception of the crown.

Hey Dan,

Honest for sure. No deception here. And if the crown has been replaced, it was replaced before this one was significantly abused (scratched up quite a bit).

And this may drive some folks crazy, but I will try to improve the aesthetics of this timepiece before I am finished. As I don't especially enjoy watches that look as if they have been run over by a train. Though I totally understand the "value" in something un-restored. In this instance, the watch may lose some originality, but will (in my opinion) be much more suitable for wearing. And most of all, I'll enjoy it more.

-Paul

janice&fred · Dec 25, 2019

PaulHelmuth
Hey Dan,

Honest for sure. No deception here. And if the crown has been replaced, it was replaced before this one was significantly abused (scratched up quite a bit).

And this may drive some folks crazy, but I will try to improve the aesthetics of this timepiece before I am finished. As I don't especially enjoy watches that look as if they have been run over by a train. Though I totally understand the "value" in something un-restored. In this instance, the watch may lose some originality, but will (in my opinion) be much more suitable for wearing. And most of all, I'll enjoy it more.

-Paul

hah you think yours looks like it got run over by a train? that thing is pristine compared to some of the stuff we come across. I do agree that a very sympathetic and gentle touch will make it more appealing to the eye but rest assured you could get away with the movement service, a simple soaking to clean the case and case back and wear it as is and not raise any eye brows. 😀

PaulHelmuth · Dec 25, 2019

Archer
Hi Paul,

People often do think that this family shares a lot parts, and they do, but not as many as is often assumed. Both of yours are based on the Cal. 260, but the 266 and 268 do have a number of parts that are different from each other.

As you noted the balance is the most obvious, as this has a smooth balance (no screws). This of course means the parts of the balance are different as well, so the balance wheel, balance spring, staff...

But in addition there are a few other parts that are different between the 266 and 268:

- wheel train bridge
- center wheel
- setting lever
- setting lever spring
- mainspring
- barrel arbor
- barrel drum

Yes the balance jewels consist of the cap jewel and the hole jewel in commonly used terms. Omega refers to the hole jewel as the "in-setting"

Not sure if you need both cap jewels (upper and lower) but the the part number for the balance side is:

72201001343 | CAP JEWEL FOR BALANCE UPPER

Unfortunately this is a discontinued part, and Omega no longer has a replacement available, so you will have to look for it on the open market.

Looking at some old Incabloc charts, it appears that the top stone (dessus) is Incabloc part #121.11, so you may be able to find it under the Incabloc number.

For the lower cap jewel, it is also discontinued, but Omega has a replacement for it - it's actually from the modern Cal. 1120:

722112070900 | CAP JEWEL, BALANCE BRIDGE SIDE

Yes it says it's for the balance side, but that's on the Cal. 1120, and on the 268 it's used on the main plate (lower) side.

Hope this helps, and happy holidays!

Cheers, Al

Al - Wow - that is very surprising about all of the different parts. I guess it makes some sense if you work it backwards from the balance wheel.

As always - very helpful and informative!

Yes - I do need both cap jewels. I only took pictures of the one shown. But both are in similar condition. So, I'll work on tracking those down.

One bright spot (parts-wise) is that Cousins does have the spring for this watch in stock (assuming the one listed by at "WatchGuy.co.uk" is correct - GR4186; which is: 1.50 x 0.125 x 360 x 11.0).

As always - many thanks!

-Paul

Edward53 · Dec 25, 2019

I can't comment on any movement issues but the dial, whilst not perfect, appears to have turned a pleasing cream colour. IMO the watch is certainly worth its money and would make a nice daily wearer. And it would look a whole lot better with a strap that fits or the right BOR.

PaulHelmuth · Dec 25, 2019

Edward53
I can't comment on any movement issues but the dial, whilst not perfect, appears to have turned a pleasing cream colour. IMO the watch is certainly worth its money and would make a nice daily wearer. And it would look a whole lot better with a strap that fits or the right BOR.

@Edward53,

I agree with you on the dial. Though I'd prefer it didn't have the three larger spots. Still, not horrible. Not sure about the hands though. They may be too far gone. Will have to see how things look when I get to that point.

The strap that is on it in the auction photos was laughable. I took it off and threw it away as soon as I saw it. Was clearly put on only to have a strap in the photos - and too low a quality to use for anything.

You said "...or the right BOR". What does that mean?

-Paul

PaulHelmuth · Dec 25, 2019

@Archer,

While hunting around for the end-stones, I went to Cousins to see if I could source the Upper end-stone for an 1120 - and it brought up three parts. It brought up the upper and lower end-stones (Omega parts). However - both of these are listed as "Restricted by the manufacturer". So, apparently not available to the general public.

The third part listed is Incabloc 922.11. So, I am guessing that this must cross reference to the 1120 upper. Thinking it must be upper, since it's a different Incabloc # than you gave for the 268 upper (121.11).

They list that as being the lower end-stone for a Valjoux 7750 - and to be the upper and lower end-stone for an ETA 7001.
They also give nominal dimensions as: 1.07 mm x 0.14 mm thick.

I went ahead and ordered the 922.11 (for the bottom) - since it's not that much money. Also ordered a package of the 121.11 and picked up some end-stones for my many 2824 (and other ETA movements) that use the 122.11 (not the 121.11).

Also ordered a mainspring.

Many thanks!
-Paul

Edward53 · Dec 25, 2019

PaulHelmuth
You said "...or the right BOR". What does that mean?

-Paul

Hello Paul, I mean the 7-row as opposed to the 9-row BOR (= beads of rice bracelet in case you didn't know what I meant by that). This is what I have my 266 on (see below) as I think cases like this one and the subsecond dial suit the bigger "anchor chain" type of link better than the flatter style of the later 9-row. Anyway that's what I'd choose, don't know about everybody else. Cheers, E.

ETA: Personally I'd keep the hands. They are compatible condition-wise with the watch and replacements might not be. And as mentioned by someone else, the whole thing looks original and it'd be a shame to change that if you don't absolutely have to.

PaulHelmuth · Dec 25, 2019

Edward53
Hello Paul, I mean the 7-row as opposed to the 9-row BOR (= beads of rice bracelet in case you didn't know what I meant by that). This is what I have my 266 on (see below) as I think cases like this one and the subsecond dial suit the bigger "anchor chain" type of link better than the flatter style of the later 9-row. Anyway that's what I'd choose, don't know about everybody else. Cheers, E.

ETA: Personally I'd keep the hands. They are compatible condition-wise with the watch and replacements might not be. And as mentioned by someone else, the whole thing looks original and it'd be a shame to change that if you don't absolutely have to.

Ah - "Beads Of Rice". I have heard that before - but it didn't come to mind when you used "BOR". That's very nice looking - and I think would be a very nice choice. Having said that, your lug design is a little different - and according to Omega's web site, the original strap for the 14713 is leather. I do think a BOR bracelet would look great though.

One thing you can't tell from the pics that I have posted is that one of the lugs has been bent. I'm sure that I can leave it as-is with a leather strap, but would probably need to straighten if a bracelet is to be used.

Beautiful watch BTW.

-Paul

PaulHelmuth · Jan 18, 2020

Greeting all.

I haven't updated this in some time.

I just received the mainspring and endstones from Cousins. ::psy::

However, in the interim - I have been working on my hairspring manipulation skills. ::facepalm1::

The hairspring on this 268 wasn't in perfect shape. It was coned a bit and not really centered.

So first, I mangled it beyond all recognition trying to "un-cone" it. 😲

Then I decided that I need some more tools and to spend a lot of time manipulating hairsprings.

For one, I didn't (previously) have any Dumont #5 or #55. And something of that size and profile were in order.
Now I have each and a #7. So, much better tweezers for the task.

I also acquired a Bergeon 30108 Hairspring holder, and some other bits.

And after many hours of practice I have developed a small amount of skill. At least now I feel like I will eventually be able to get this spring back in service. Which is not what I thought when I first mangled it.

Here is another terrible photo from my microscope (no solution to that camera problem yet)...

I know this still has a bit of work to go. Actually I was closer to finished than this, but a careless slip in handling provided me with more opportunity to practice. The center coils and collet were in much better shape than they are now. 🙁

I wish I had taken more photos - but I didn't realize what a project I was creating before I started - and once I had screwed things up badly, I was most focused on trying to recover rather than document - or create photographic evidence of my blunder.

But I did stop and take a pic this morning. Hopefully, I will be able wrangle this back in to functional shape. I will probably check back in with the experts to make the last tweaks.

Hope all are well.

-Paul

PaulHelmuth · Jan 19, 2020

Frog Leg Tweezers?

While searching for advice and information regarding fixing hairspring errors in the flat, I found this post from a professional watchmaker in the FL area...

"For correcting in the flat, (which should be done before correcting for the out of round), work from the collet out to find the high spot. Once the the first highest spot is found, go back toward the collet 180 degrees - this will be the point where the correction is made. I use two frog-leg tweezers to make the correction to level that coil. Then move down the hairspring, working away from the collet to find the next highest spot, repeat the procedure to make the correction. Work your way around the hairspring till it is in the flat. Then make the corrections to bring the hairspring in the round. I hope this is of some help."

Can anyone help me with identifying "frog-leg" style tweezers?

Many thanks,
-Paul

Archer · Jan 19, 2020

PaulHelmuth
Can anyone help me with identifying "frog-leg" style tweezers?

Many thanks,
-Paul

No idea what this refers to...given that no instructor I've ever had in school or at any brand I've trained with mentioned these, or any book I've ever read called for anything other than regular tweezers, I think even if you find out what these are and order them, they aren't likely to be any more effective at helping you make the adjustments you need to make.

With work on balance springs, there aren't really any short cuts...

Cheers, Al

PaulHelmuth · Jan 19, 2020

Archer
No idea what this refers to...given that no instructor I've ever had in school or at any brand I've trained with mentioned these, or any book I've ever read called for anything other than regular tweezers, I think even if you find out what these are and order them, they aren't likely to be any more effective at helping you make the adjustments you need to make.

With work on balance springs, there aren't really any short cuts...

Cheers, Al

Thanks Al!

No wonder I hadn't heard of them - and couldn't find them.

I get that there are no shortcuts. But I do have an appreciation for having the right tool for the job (for whatever one is working on). So, thought it would be worth the ask.

I definitely find the #5 (and #55 and #7) much better suited to hairsprings (than the #2 that I was trying to use).

Of course, some live instruction and proper study would be the best tools. But I don't think that will be an option. At least not while I am still working my "day job".

So appreciative of all the knowledge and insights that you (and others) share. I have really learned a lot in the short time that I have been posting here.

Many thanks!
-Paul

PaulHelmuth · Feb 13, 2020

Archer
Hi Paul,

...Yes the balance jewels consist of the cap jewel and the hole jewel in commonly used terms. Omega refers to the hole jewel as the "in-setting"

Not sure if you need both cap jewels (upper and lower) but the the part number for the balance side is:

72201001343 | CAP JEWEL FOR BALANCE UPPER

Unfortunately this is a discontinued part, and Omega no longer has a replacement available, so you will have to look for it on the open market.

Looking at some old Incabloc charts, it appears that the top stone (dessus) is Incabloc part #121.11, so you may be able to find it under the Incabloc number.

For the lower cap jewel, it is also discontinued, but Omega has a replacement for it - it's actually from the modern Cal. 1120:

722112070900 | CAP JEWEL, BALANCE BRIDGE SIDE

Yes it says it's for the balance side, but that's on the Cal. 1120, and on the 268 it's used on the main plate (lower) side.

Hope this helps, and happy holidays!

Cheers, Al

@Archer - I know this won't come as a surprise 😀, but I got things wrong when trying to source the lower cap jewel.

When I looked up that part at Cousins - the Omega part was "restricted". But it listed an Incabloc part in the search - 922.11 - which I incorrectly thought was the part that I was looking for. Replacing the end-stones today, I see that the 922.11 is smaller than the jewel that was in there. Do you have a cross-reference for the Cal. 1120 to know what the Incabloc number is for it's upper cap jewel (722112070900)?

The 121.11 seems to be perfect for the 268 upper (not surprisingly).

Many thanks - hope all is well with you.

-Paul

ChrisN · Feb 13, 2020

This link should work for you, if you have a Cousins account.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/1287_Incabloc By Factory - Omega.pdf

If not, look in document downloads for "Incabloc".

Good luck, Chris

PaulHelmuth · Feb 13, 2020

ChrisN
This link should work for you, if you have a Cousins account.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/1287_Incabloc By Factory - Omega.pdf

If not, look in document downloads for "Incabloc".

Good luck, Chris

Chris,

Thanks so much. 122.11 appears to be the part I am looking for. Now to locate.

-Paul

ChrisN · Feb 13, 2020

Cousins sell all these parts. Inca parts tend to be common across movements as there are only a few typical standards. Here is the area for Inca:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/inca-novodiac

Best, Chris

PaulHelmuth · Feb 13, 2020

ChrisN
Cousins sell all these parts. Inca parts tend to be common across movements as there are only a few typical standards. Here is the area for Inca:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/inca-novodiac

Best, Chris

Chris,

Kind of funny, kind of lucky. When I ordered what I thought were the parts for the 268, I ordered a couple of packs of the 122.11 - because that's the correct part for most of the ETA movements that I have - and I thought it would be a good idea to those on hand.

So, I already have them here! ::psy::

Thanks. 😀
-Paul

Another Omega 30mm (Newbee Question Part Deux)

PaulHelmuth

Dan S

Archer

PaulHelmuth

janice&fred

PaulHelmuth

Edward53

PaulHelmuth

PaulHelmuth

Edward53

PaulHelmuth

PaulHelmuth

PaulHelmuth

Archer

PaulHelmuth

PaulHelmuth

ChrisN

PaulHelmuth

ChrisN

PaulHelmuth

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