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Advices requested about Pre-Moon vintage speedie

Scalpelator
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Hi guys and speedies’addicted I’ve been caught by the speedie mania for few months now and after my hunt, I found what could be my first speedie.
The watch is sold by a local and presented as a 145.012-67, with a « not so bad » original DON bezel, an AML step dial with close T and patina matching hands (drop second hand). UV shows an harmonious low lume, so not relumed dial IMO.
The caseback is unfortunetaly a service one 145.0012.
Caliber is a 321 24.591.xxx.
After I’ve readen several opinion from several tables, I should admit I’m a bit confused.
Serial matches w/145.013 as well as 105.012.
Dial is definitely a 105.012 one and thème is no reason to have been replaced.

Before asking OMEGA an EOA to valid the watch UD, whatsapp is your general opinion about this deal before a quite expensive decision ?

What could be the reference of this model ?
105 or 145 ?
Would you see any no-go red light ?

Thanks at all !
 
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Dash1
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Welcome. Buy the right vintage Speedy and you’ll not regret it. Imo this one has many problems so would have to be very cheap to make it worthwhile. Without an extract you don’t know which reference the movement came from and which (expensive) correct parts you’re going to need to buy.
 
Scalpelator
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Thank you for your answer. Could you tell me more about the « many problems » you had identified ?
I found also EOA with 321 Younger and older and booth identified as 105.012. This one should logically own to the same « family », shouldn’t it ?
 
padders
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I don't think either that dial or serial are right for a 145.012-67, it is more in the 105.012-66 range. You might have a bit of a Franken there since the pushers are the later 145 type and as you say that is a service caseback, or maybe it is just a HF cased -66 which has received new parts at various times.
Edited:
 
Scalpelator
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@padders Agree. Seems to be a 145.012 ‘66 with serviced caseback and pushers. Is this kind of « franken » is a no go ? Talking about 50y+ old watches...
&dash1: what is very cheap according to you ?
 
Dash1
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Scalpelator Scalpelator
Is this kind of « franken » is a no go ? Talking about 50y+ old watches...
&dash1: what is very cheap according to you ?
It’s hard to say without knowing if the movement actually came from a Speedmaster and which ref. The speedmaster 101 price chart gives a value of $4500 for a poor condition 145.012. This does have a decent bezel and dial however, but I ntil you know what reference you’ll be trying to recreate you can’t price up the missing parts. Wouldn’t it be easier just to buy a decent one in the beginning?
 
Scalpelator
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@Dash1: your words sound wise. But I don’t want to spend years looking after a piece more expensive or more difficult to find as time goes on. If the EOA confirms the reference, would just need a corrrect bcaseback (no serviced one in 145, or I hope in 105)
What about serial ? Could it come from another ref of watch If it belongs to a range with lower and upper declared as 105 ?
 
Dan S
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Scalpelator Scalpelator
@padders Agree. Seems to be a 145.012 ‘66 with serviced caseback and pushers. Is this kind of « franken » is a no go ? Talking about 50y+ old watches...
&dash1: what is very cheap according to you ?

Honestly, the best way to learn this lesson is to buy the watch, and then try to re-sell it in a year or two.
 
J
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or get off the train at the next station, buy the watch and enjoy it for the next 40 yrs, and let your kids sort it out. YMMV
 
Spacefruit
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Scalpelator Scalpelator
@Dash1: your words sound wise. But I don’t want to spend years looking after a piece more expensive or more difficult to find as time goes on. If the EOA confirms the reference, would just need a corrrect bcaseback (no serviced one in 145, or I hope in 105)
What about serial ? Could it come from another ref of watch If it belongs to a range with lower and upper declared as 105 ?

The thing is, once an anomaly is discovered, it is not usually the only thing wrong, rather it is an indicator that the whole watch lacks integrity, and that every part requires scrutiny.

The case back is alarming, and is not possible it is "just" a case back swap.

The dial, mid case and case back are not original/ If the mid case is indeed a 105.012-66HF then it will have damaged pusher holes in order to fit the screw in pushers. If it is a 145.012 mid case then the dial is wrong...

The movement could be from anything.

That said, this is the best advice, one that I followed:

Dan S Dan S
Honestly, the best way to learn this lesson is to buy the watch, and then try to re-sell it in a year or two.

Just get it at a price that reflects the issues, as there is plenty to enjoy.
 
kingsrider
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The pics are not detailed enough for a concrete analysis. But it appears to me to be a CB case that has seen polishing. I can't tell if the pushers are fat. The only shot is from the reverse and not telling with any certainty. Service hands. Off center DON. It had a bracelet at one time.
The same old whine. Price! is it a $100 or $10,000?
 
padders
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Scalpelator Scalpelator
You’re in the good range. Asked price 7.5k$.
Ouch. Back away slowly, then turn and run.
 
Spacefruit
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Scalpelator Scalpelator
You’re in the good range. Asked price 7.5k$.

Look at it as parts and you will get the right value

Bezel: (Good)
Dial: (Useful)
Movement (A lottery, depends which case ref it matches)

The rest is not very desirable

Separately on Ebay these might raise a total of $5,000.- $6,000

A dealer will ask more for the parts, but might not sell them quickly
 
airansun
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Oh, don’t do it, please. (Virtually everyone here has made this mistake themselves, back in the day...🙄)

Watch is all prepped up nice and pretty but with all these problems?

Charming. Who knows what further evil lies beneath?
 
Scalpelator
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
The dial, mid case and case back are not original/ If the mid case is indeed a 105.012-66HF then it will have damaged pusher holes in order to fit the screw in pushers. If it is a 145.012 mid case then the dial is wrong...
Could you explain the risk about the pushers ?
If 145.012 wide & tall have been in place, as diameters are both 5mm, and variation concerns only length, how does it damage the case ? Indeed, is it risky to change back to correct pushers ? Ok yes: risky for which part ? Caliber ?

Just to be clear, i heard your alarms and appreciate your advices and experience share for community.
i will try to keep all this in mind...
 
Dan S
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Scalpelator Scalpelator
Could you explain the risk about the pushers ?
If 145.012 wide & tall have been in place, as diameters are both 5mm, and variation concerns only length, how does it damage the case ? Indeed, is it risky to change back to correct pushers ? Ok yes: risky for which part ? Caliber ?

The 105.012 pushers are generally press-fit, and 145.012 pushers are screw-in. There is a lot to learn.
 
S.H.
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Right know you are trying to be a watchmaker, without being one. On a potential 7,5k buy it has the potential of a spectacularly bad idea...
I would suggest taking a step back, continue to learn and hunt. Either pay up for a more correct example, pay much less for an incorrect one such as this one, or target a more forgiving 145.022 on which pusher, crown and bezel may be easier to source depending on the specific iteration.
Bringing an incorrect 50 year old watch up to a good standard is more difficult than you seem to imagine.
 
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