Adjusting/regulating a watch for being worn

watch_my_six · Jul 25, 2024

A seller recently told me that their watchmaker set a watch such that "it will keep better time when worn than put on the timegrapher" (since it was running -23sec/day on the timegrapher). I have never heard of this. Especially in this case since the watch doesn't even have a second hand! How would they even do this? e.g. if it was regulated to be better than -23 sec/day when worn, let's say -10 sec/day (which still wouldn't be that great), without a second hand, wouldn't the watchmaker have to actually wear it (or put it on a winder) for 6 days just to know that it has lost 1 minute and is thus better than the -23 sec/day reading from the timegrapher?! Am I missing something? Or is this a load of BS? Cheers,

ghce · Jul 25, 2024

jspdl
A seller recently told me that their watchmaker set a watch such that "it will keep better time when worn than put on the timegrapher" (since it was running -23sec/day on the timegrapher). I have never heard of this. Especially in this case since the watch doesn't even have a second hand! How would they even do this? e.g. if it was regulated to be better than -23 sec/day when worn, let's say -10 sec/day (which still wouldn't be that great), without a second hand, wouldn't the watchmaker have to actually wear it (or put it on a winder) for 6 days just to know that it has lost 1 minute and is thus better than the -23 sec/day reading from the timegrapher?! Am I missing something? Or is this a load of BS? Cheers,

It certainly makes sense.
My watchmaker often sets the time different than the best daily rate in one position.
Watches run at different rates based on their position IE face up, back up, crown up etc.
The balance wheel normally is adjusted to give the most consistent daily rate in a couple of positions, the more positions the more you pay as it is a time consuming process to get best performance of the daily rate in many positions.
A watch maker may well opt for the best average rate to try and mitigate the poor poising ( the adjustments for balance wheel positions) of the balance wheel.

Dan S · Jul 25, 2024

I'm inclined to think that regulating a watch to keep good time on the wrist would probably involve some iteration. Wear the watch for a few days, make an adjustment, etc.

mseamaster · Jul 25, 2024

ghce
It certainly makes sense.
My watchmaker often sets the time different than the best daily rate in one position.
Watches run at different rates based on their position IE face up, back up, crown up etc.
The balance wheel normally is adjusted to give the most consistent daily rate in a couple of positions, the more positions the more you pay as it is a time consuming process to get best performance of the daily rate in many positions.
A watch maker may well opt for the best average rate to try and mitigate the poor poising ( the adjustments for balance wheel positions) of the balance wheel.

Makes lot of sense.

Reminds me of this - there's a description of their process(positions and so on):
https://www.grand-seiko.com/uk-en/collections/movement/mechanical

I don't have any modern GS though so I can't comment on the actual performance.

It says adjusted in 6 positions and different temperatures.

Btw recently I read about adjusting in more positions throughout a month or so and so on, getting something like 0.1s daily consistently. I wonder if that's even possible...

I think the best I've seen is around 1-2 s daily...

And usually it's the opposite if the value is too good, time grapher can show 0s but when actually wearing the watch it could be 5s.

watch_my_six · Jul 25, 2024

ghce
It certainly makes sense.
My watchmaker often sets the time different than the best daily rate in one position.
Watches run at different rates based on their position IE face up, back up, crown up etc.
The balance wheel normally is adjusted to give the most consistent daily rate in a couple of positions, the more positions the more you pay as it is a time consuming process to get best performance of the daily rate in many positions.
A watch maker may well opt for the best average rate to try and mitigate the poor poising ( the adjustments for balance wheel positions) of the balance wheel.

But if they're optimizing for the best average rate, then shouldn’t they (be able to) show all of those timings rather than just one and saying it’s optimized “for being worn“?

ghce · Jul 25, 2024

jspdl
But if they're optimizing for the best average rate, then shouldn’t they (be able to) show all of those timings rather than just one and saying it’s optimized “for being worn“?

Watch positions times can vary dramatically from position to position on a standard "unadjusted" watch which would probably just make for bad advertising of a product they are trying to sell especially to a public that has a limited understanding of how a watch works and is timed, largely the reported information would be irrelevant in part because the power delivery from a spring on a low to mid priced or indeed high specced watch changes with how wound up the spring is so whilst you may have one reading in one position when it's fully wound it's most unlikely that you would have the same daily rate at half or quarter wound.

Getting into quoting figures for a seller or a buyer is a bit of a mine field especially in the vintage market, sensible sellers generally won't give figures and suggest that servicing is best left to the buyer, you can well imagine the strife for eBay etc with returned watches.

watch_my_six · Jul 25, 2024

ghce
Watch positions times can vary dramatically from position to position on a standard "unadjusted" watch which would probably just make for bad advertising of a product they are trying to sell especially to a public that has a limited understanding of how a watch works and is timed, largely the reported information would be irrelevant in part because the power delivery from a spring on a low to mid priced or indeed high specced watch changes with how wound up the spring is so whilst you may have one reading in one position when it's fully wound it's most unlikely that you would have the same daily rate at half or quarter wound.

Getting into quoting figures for a seller or a buyer is a bit of a mine field especially in the vintage market, sensible sellers generally won't give figures and suggest that servicing is best left to the buyer, you can well imagine the strife for eBay etc with returned watches.

In this case the watch had apparently been recently serviced, and I got the same figure on my timegrapher, so what do you make of that?

Archer · Jul 26, 2024

jspdl
A seller recently told me that their watchmaker set a watch such that "it will keep better time when worn than put on the timegrapher" (since it was running -23sec/day on the timegrapher). I have never heard of this. Especially in this case since the watch doesn't even have a second hand! How would they even do this? e.g. if it was regulated to be better than -23 sec/day when worn, let's say -10 sec/day (which still wouldn't be that great), without a second hand, wouldn't the watchmaker have to actually wear it (or put it on a winder) for 6 days just to know that it has lost 1 minute and is thus better than the -23 sec/day reading from the timegrapher?! Am I missing something? Or is this a load of BS? Cheers,

If there's a claim that it runs close to zero on the wrist (or even -10 s/d), and one position is running at -23 s/ds, then one or more positions must be running quite fast to make up for this one slow position. That means that the positional variation is quite large. I'm not sure of the maker of this movement, but generally speaking it would be somewhat rare to have this amount of variation in a quality watch movement.

watch_my_six · Aug 2, 2024

A bit of new info (for posterity), the seller said that what their watchmaker meant by regulating it "for the wrist" was that he gives greater credence for the result with the crown side down and the dial up. But still no word on the variation...

ghce · Aug 2, 2024

It all comes down to your expectations.
If you want a watch that runs perfectly in all positions and an excellent daily rate you need to buy new and chronometer grade then there are likely to be no problems but in the advent of any you can come back to the manufacturer for warranty.
Buying second hand is a crapshoot, you are unlikely to get what you want.
I buy a huge amount of 2nd hand vintage watches by anyone's standards, to me it's a bonus if the watch is running, I disbelieve all seller claims and buy with the expectation that the watch will at least need a service and possible parts and will likely arrive to me in non going order.
I get close to all purchases repaired and serviced and if it's one I want to use daily or a lot I will get my watchmaker to repoise it to positions after his service and repair. All this costs and it costs a lot.
Unless you are willing to pay huge sums of money on servicing don't muck around with the many honest but misinformed or just plain dishonest sellers and buy new.

watch_my_six · Aug 3, 2024

ghce
It all comes down to your expectations.
If you want a watch that runs perfectly in all positions and an excellent daily rate you need to buy new and chronometer grade then there are likely to be no problems but in the advent of any you can come back to the manufacturer for warranty.
Buying second hand is a crapshoot, you are unlikely to get what you want.
I buy a huge amount of 2nd hand vintage watches by anyone's standards, to me it's a bonus if the watch is running, I disbelieve all seller claims and buy with the expectation that the watch will at least need a service and possible parts and will likely arrive to me in non going order.
I get close to all purchases repaired and serviced and if it's one I want to use daily or a lot I will get my watchmaker to repoise it to positions after his service and repair. All this costs and it costs a lot.
Unless you are willing to pay huge sums of money on servicing don't muck around with the many honest but misinformed or just plain dishonest sellers and buy new.

In general, I agree. Although in this case, my expectation was not perfect timing in all positions, just +-10 seconds in at least one position, which after a recent service, for a caliber such as this (JLC 900/920 base), finished by a company such as Vacheron, I thought was reasonable. Is that not reasonable?

Davidt · Aug 3, 2024

Sounds like BS to account for poor timegrapher readings.

p.giannakis · Aug 26, 2024

Althought the watch will give different time rates depending on the orientation, a serviced and well maintained watch will not give wildly different rates between different positions. Losing 23 sec per day is not that bad (although not great either) but if the timegrapher shows a much different rate if you flip it over - then i would say that the watch needs servicing and regulating.

J!m · Aug 27, 2024

watch_my_six
A bit of new info (for posterity), the seller said that what their watchmaker meant by regulating it "for the wrist" was that he gives greater credence for the result with the crown side down and the dial up. But still no word on the variation...

This is how I prioritize positional accuracy.

Adjusting/regulating a watch for being worn

watch_my_six

ghce

Dan S

mseamaster

watch_my_six

ghce

watch_my_six

Archer

watch_my_six

ghce

watch_my_six

Davidt

p.giannakis

J!m

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