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A Omega Deluxe Automatic Chronometre OT 14.327 18k Gold

  1. Vanallard

    Vanallard Sep 16, 2018

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    This beauty was purchased on a recent trip to New York. Service history was unknown so I thought it best to leave it with my watchmaker for servicing. Picked it up yesterday and thought I’d share a few pics as this model/reference doesn’t come up very often.

    Solid 18k gold case with fancy lug covers. Reference OT 14.327. SN dates the watch to 1953.

    Inside is a 17 jewel chronometer rated cal. 354 bumper movement (could be a 28.10 RA SC-354 based a similar reference in AJTT). I took a gamble and bought the watch without seeing the movement and was pleasantly surprised when I later removed the case back and saw that the movement was well preserved.

    The watch is very nicely sized at just under 35mm without the crown.

    The original crown was an added bonus :)

    Enjoy!

    B4528912-B810-446B-AF35-9599BBB7FF83.jpeg 2E3BD72F-F40D-4880-B89C-1E274C06E2B4.jpeg C21618FF-CCB8-487C-BD8D-6B09037CD6B8.jpeg 02C645BE-F17B-4098-A997-A9C5CEFF536E.jpeg C1CC4659-C49A-4BA7-8019-528B6672C878.jpeg 09666FA3-64E9-4AEB-A68F-0CBC1B89836D.jpeg 2E2E54D6-77C2-4908-95A4-11F634E062C9.jpeg 8519CA8E-DE3C-446C-A19E-E79257F0BC1B.jpeg 29DBBC55-5600-475E-9969-88BC8A886868.jpeg CF0BCFD2-627D-4ED5-B8C3-F363026202EA.jpeg
     
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  2. BlackTalon Ω 2

    BlackTalon This Space for Rent Sep 16, 2018

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    Looks nice. Do you have any photos of the dial looking straight on? From the angles these are taken it gives the impression the dial may have been refinished (the seconds marks in relationship to the dividing line between the two concentric dial circles).
     
  3. Vanallard

    Vanallard Sep 16, 2018

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    It’s likely the crystal/lighting that’s giving that impression. Everything appears to be aligned and correct in person.
     
    B8B6AFB2-AD10-4B12-8FF2-CF3B78AC97CA.jpeg
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  4. Bill Sohne Ω 2

    Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Oct 13, 2018

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    Hello everyone.....

    @UncleBuck , @padders , @Vanallard ....

    This topic came up on the private sales forum... and I did not want to seem the leave it "half done"....

    The seller @Vanallard post a nice Omega bumper chronometre for sale.....
    As the seller was trying to post info.... and was referencing Marco Richon's book AJTT ....

    seller states "Inside is a 17 jewel chronometer rated cal. 354 bumper movement (possibly a 28.10 RA SC-354 based a similar reference in AJTT)...."

    other members have commented that a 28.10 has exposed springs and the 354 does not and its not correct ... ( i am paraphrasing to cut to the chase.... )

    Lets get back to basics....
    When we are referencing 28.10 , that is the plate diameter... period....

    so 28.10 is just a measurement.
    an Omega movement reference...
    like a sub second bumper with 28.10 diameter ..... is actually 28.10 RA PC AM 17 jewels.... was later known as a caliber 340.... see attached page pne of the material sheet for the caliber attached...
    a 28.10 RA PC you will notice exposed bumper springs that was only a feature of this caliber and its sweep seconds counter part .... caliber 28.10 RA SC PC 17 j later known as a caliber 350...

    28.10 RA PC AM
    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 10.58.35 PM.png

    and a 28.10 RA SC PC AM ( RA : Automatic Movement SC : central seconds PC : Para-shock AM: Non Magnetic ) still have exposed bumper springs...

    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.03.18 PM.png

    Now lets just focus on the sweeps seconds version of the movement....
    next up
    caliber 28.10 RA SC PC T1 AM (T1: First transformation ) ... later will be renamed caliber 351 ....
    You will notice the exposed bumper springs are no longer exposed. hence part of the T1 modification on the 28.10 diameter based movement....

    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.07.55 PM.png

    The next version...
    caliber 28.10 RA SC PC T1 RG AM ( RG: index regulator ) later will be know as caliber 352....
    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.12.18 PM.png

    then the first date version of the bumper movement....
    caliber 28.10 RA SC PC T1 CAL AM ( CAL: Calendar ) later to be known as 353
    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.13.58 PM.png

    Next up the movement we started to talk about in the sales post....

    caliber 28.10 RA SC PC T2 RG AM ( T2: second transform ). late to be known as caliber 354....

    This is where the " Rub" is from the sales post...
    The seller referenced Marco Richon's book A Journey Thru Time... ( AJTT ) where Marco has a similar watch in his book.... ) and references the movement as a "28.10 RA SC - 354" .... some what short hand... as he saying its a 28.10 diameter plate movement with automatic winding and is sweep seconds. and I would read it as AKA 354.. but I would allow Marco to be given some leeway .... So the seller trying to add more info to his sales post added that bit of info ....

    Here is the callout in AJTT...
    ajtt354.jpeg

    and the Omega material list for the caliber...

    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.24.09 PM.png

    Ok now We have lots of data above.....

    So when someone says " all 28.10 have exposed bumper springs...." that is not correct....
    caliber 28.10 RA PC AM - 340 or 28.10 RA SC PC AM - 350 have exposed bumper springs...

    Then when someone says that is not correct ... calling the movement in the sales post a 28.10 RA SC- 354 ... when the seller is referencing Marco Richon . If Marco thought it was good enough for his book... ( also FYi he was the previous curator of the Omega Museum.... I met him back in the 1990s while visiting Omega..) I thought that would be acceptable. as we can see in the material sheet above Omega cross referenced all the New 3 digit naming conventions with its old school verbose naming convention...
    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.32.24 PM.png

    It would have been more correct for Marco call out to be 28.10 RA SC PC T2 RG AM - 354 , go figure....

    also notice with the second Transform... the index regulator was changed from the "Omega System" to a more economical Swan neck regulator.... and this chronometre bumper also did not have the fancy deluxe finished winding wheels and click... but all other parts to the 28.10 RA SC PC T1 RG AM - 352 was just about the same....just a more cost effective version of the index regulator bumper movement....

    But I do not want to digress.....

    The issue here... seller referenced AJTT to add more info to his sales post... and others commented it was not correct....

    I wanted to point out that it was correct.... taken the source of the material that the seller referenced....

    The movement is a 354... Omega cross reference it as

    Screen Shot 2018-10-13 at 11.32.24 PM.png
    and Marco truncated in his book as 28.10 RA SC - 354.... may be cause he was old school... .just a thought .

    What is also good about posting this it self evident why Omega decided to change the caliber naming convention to the more commonly name of caliber 354 in this case....

    I do not mean to make a mountain out of a little bump on the sales forum... but It opened the door to what is really a caliber 28.10 RA SC PC....
    Good Hunting

    Bill Sohne
    PS No one will be banned for disagreeing with me on the above.....


    ›
     
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  5. padders Ω 1

    padders Oooo subtitles! Oct 14, 2018

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    Wow Bill! Academic levels of research. I’ll reread this a couple of times but what already sunk in it the bit about covered springs not being a sure fire identifier for a post name change version. Enlightening.

    I have seen other Omega materials referencing the older diameter based naming scheme well into the late 1950s so I guess there is precedent for a early to mid ‘50s piece to do this, particularly as the old name is much more descriptive and therefore logical. I think my resistance to the older scheme is purely that I haven’t invested the time to learn the abbreviations which make up the name so prefer the 3 digit versions. Those that have like the author of AJTT (and perhaps yourself) perhaps prefer the succinct descriptiveness of that system.

    Where do you let it stop though? The full rotor 28mm 50x and 55x movement’s can also be presumably described like this, but it would perhaps seen bloody minded and maybe confusing to do so. I guess there are exact parallels with the 30mm movements too, after ‘48-49 it’s more normal to see 26x or 28x but I guess in the background there is a 10-15 character descriptive name which can be justifiably applied.

    At a push, you could perhaps extend it to the ETA era but that would be a push too far maybe!
     
    Edited Oct 14, 2018
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  6. Bill Sohne Ω 2

    Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Oct 14, 2018

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    Hi @padders

    It common to talk about the 28.10 family of movements.... that would include 34x and 35x bumpers.... etc...

    And the exposed springs is a physical feature of one version ( Sweep second and one version sub seconds )of the 28.10 based movement ( cal 340 and cal 350 )

    Lets take a look at the material list of the caliber 500.... and you will see Omega still added the cross reference.

    Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 8.13.50 AM.png

    But as we all are in violent agreement the 3 digit / 4 digit caliber naming convention is a better fit for inventory control , POS , referencing etc.... ordering a part... like ordering a balance complete for a 350 ... all you would need to do is request a 350-1327 vs ... requesting 28.10 RA SC PC AM balance complete.
    As you read these caliber material lists...
    They will tell you what the movements base caliber is , what parts are different from the base caliber etc....
    like on the caliber 500 it uses parts from the caliber 470.... I will included the entire material list for caliber 500 here just as an eye opener. Just to be clear the 500 material list longer then most... typical sheets are 2 to 3 pages.. this one is like 6 pages...

    Its good to know about the older naming system as it give a great amount of insight to the movement in question....

    Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 8.18.07 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 8.18.18 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 8.18.27 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 8.18.38 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-10-14 at 8.18.56 AM.png


    I have to go back to a hard copy of the material list book as I remember it had a reference page with definitions of all the short hand letter codes like c12 for 12 hour coutner... etc....

    I love the forum when we can add a level of clarity to an otherwise over looked topic......


    Good Hunting

    Bill
     
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  7. padders Ω 1

    padders Oooo subtitles! Oct 14, 2018

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    Those sheets are pretty useful since they define what the abbreviations mean in several languages, thus removing my main objection to the scheme. I wonder how much further they continued. Did the 55X/56X/75X family get sheets in that format too, presumably so. I wonder how late they ran, up to the 1970s perhaps? At a guess they maybe stopped at the introduction of the joint Tissot/Omega movement at the turn of the 70s.

    The 17 pierres bit jumps out though, I logically assume it refers to jewels, I have seen these named as 'rubis' before on Swiss Francophone watches but 'pierres'? Isn't that saying 17 Peters in English?
     
    Edited Oct 14, 2018
  8. JimInOz Ω 2

    JimInOz Melbourne Australia Oct 14, 2018

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    Jewels are also called stones in another language.

    Thus, 17P (17 Pierres) = 17 Stones = 17 Rubis = 17 Jewels.
     
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  9. padders Ω 1

    padders Oooo subtitles! Oct 14, 2018

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    Ahh Peter the rock. Pierre = Petra = Rock = stones. Clarity!
     
  10. Bill Sohne Ω 2

    Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Oct 14, 2018

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    Hi @padders
    Atlest into the 1970s...

    off to the airport ! will check in again once in the air..
    Best

    bill
     
  11. ChrisN Ω 1

    ChrisN Oct 14, 2018

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    For the bumpers, here is a quick reference to the equivalents and the years they were introduced. I think Bill has covered all the explanations of the abbreviations.
    upload_2018-10-14_14-18-0.png

    All calibres have parts lists, as you need to know what parts to order, and usually in different languages to save printing them multiple times. Omega were pretty good at re-using parts from existing calibres which saved them re-designing and carrying multiple similar parts as stock. As an example, the winding pinion (1108) you can see above:

    4701108 is used in the 500 series (490-505), the 550 series (550-565), as well as 470,471 (which are part of the 500 series really).

    This is very useful for me, and any watchmaker, as it means you can reduce the amount of money tied up in stock but still cover many watches. Some of the other manufacturers make it much harder in both working out which part goes with which calibre and having lots of similar parts.

    Cheers, Chris
     
  12. Archer Ω 2

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Oct 14, 2018

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    Parts lists are produced for every movement, including the very latest movements Omega makes...
     
  13. padders Ω 1

    padders Oooo subtitles! Oct 14, 2018

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    Yes I assume so, what I really meant was did they continue the earlier diameter & abbreviations naming scheme shown on the sheets above. I am fairly sure the parts sheets for the 8400 movement for instance doesnt also call it the 29 RA SC PC AM 39p.
     
    Edited Oct 14, 2018
  14. Archer Ω 2

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Oct 14, 2018

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    Okay different question - I have a list of old and new movement numbers that was published in 1957, so you might think that anything made after that date would not use any of this old numbering system, but Omega still did use it on their tech guides (parts lists) well after that date So even the 861 had one of these older numbers that is shown on an old version of the tech guide:

    861 = 27 CHRO C12 PC 17 jewels

    This follows right up to the 1010 series and beyond:

    1010 = 27.90 T1 RA SC PC CAL CORR 17 p.

    1040 = 31 CHRO C 12 RA PC CAL CORR 22 jewels

    1045 = 31 CHRO C 12 RA PC CALD CORR CORJ A24 STS PS C60 17 jewels

    Even quartz movements had these other movement numbers...

    1387 = R 13 Q CORH CORM 3 jewels (13 x 15.15 x 2.3)

    And yes the Tissot sharing era also had them...

    1480 = RA SCD PC CAL CORR 17j
    1481 = RA SCD PC CAL CORR 21j

    Looking at various tech guides, the movements that don't appear to have this sort of number associated with them are more from the modern era, such as the 1109 (based on the ETA 2892).

    Cheers, Al
     
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  15. padders Ω 1

    padders Oooo subtitles! Oct 14, 2018

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    Interesting. I am rather surprised they persisted into the quartz era. I guess that last sheet done that way may have actually been approaching the 1980s then.
     
  16. Bill Sohne Ω 2

    Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Oct 14, 2018

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    On plane...

    Yup, old habits die hard.......

    Good chance the new guard .. took over and did away with the old style naming convention....

    Rem8nds me of a story .. old friend of mine work at navel undersea labs..... told me for years they been trying to put in digital depth displays on the subs... but one navy admiral refused the idea cause “sailor has a better understanding looking at a analog gauge cause it more visual “. Well as soon as he retired .... Dugan display depth gauges were approved ....


    Good Hunting
    Bill
     
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  17. dstern

    dstern Oct 25, 2018

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    Bill, this is a superb bit of research and it makes me grateful to be on OF. Thank you.

    David