A longines from... 1920s? (solved: probably 1915!)

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

Hey guys,

I own this beaut for a while now and I'm trying to gather as much info as possible about it, also whether it's a redial or retouched in any other sense (including the crown):

View attachment 1043540 View attachment 1043541 View attachment 1043542 View attachment 1043543 View attachment 1043544

Comparisons

It looks like the case symbols (squirrel) matches the 14k mark on it. Markings on Longines also look fine. I couldn't figure out how to interpret the serial number, though.

I've also some pics of peer watches from 1920s e.g. Breguet, Patek Philippe etc. which might help with determining the model and date, see them on Google Search and also below:

https://watchcharts.com/listing/773...nificent-18k-solid-gold-case-longines-midsize

Another one with subseconds:

https://www.vintage-wristwatches.co...8ct-gold-cushion-vintage-longines-watch-3632/

This 11.87 M movement, sold for £111, has almost every characteristic that my watch has (but also a subsecond, I guess) :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Longines...iameter-24-mm-for-project-parts-/174077126850

This one, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a subsec:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...echanical-Movement-11-87-M-1187-/223559381713

Appreciate your comments!

DirtyDozen12 · Aug 11, 2020

Yes, likely from the 1920's. Maybe sent to Turkey? Crown may not be correct but this is not so significant on such a watch. Dial looks to be solid silver with enamel numerals. Would need better photos to assess but the "Longines" printing looks a bit imprecise. I think that I remember this watch from eBay. @Syrte might be interested.

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

DirtyDozen12
Yes, likely from the 1920's. Maybe sent to Turkey? Crown may not be correct but this is not so significant on such a watch. Dial looks to be solid silver with enamel numerals. Would need better photos to assess but the "Longines" printing looks a bit imprecise. I think that I remember this watch from eBay. @Syrte might be interested.

Wow, thanks a million for the insights! Got two questions:

1.How did you pinpoint it to Turkey? I'm living in Turkey and my dad acquired the watch here 😀 don't know if he got it via eBay, though.

2. What sort of additional photos would you like? I can take more unless not from inside.

Edit: typo

DirtyDozen12 · Aug 11, 2020

There is a marking beside the serial number on the movement. I have seen this marking on other Longines that originally went to Turkey.

A clear photo of the dial that shows the "Longines" signature. It can be tough to get it in focus. Also, natural light (outdoors) usually leads to the best results.

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

DirtyDozen12
There is a marking beside the serial number on the movement. I have seen this marking on other Longines that originally went to Turkey.

Don't know what to say, totally respect your sharp observation! In early 1920s Turkey was still using Arabic alphabet so might be related to that. I also just a friend who can read letters and know we probably know what it means: "Nazir" in Latin letters, which means "gold" in modern Turkish. Unbelievable discovery, isn't it? I wonder if that means the movement is golden, too. [EDIT: Please see here for updated info on the Arabic letters].

Btw, here are some additional pics of the dial, don't know if it reflects the dark blue-ish colour of the hands:

Edit: Pics and info on hand colour.
Edit 2: Updated the info.

Dan S · Aug 11, 2020

Have you had Longines pull an extract from the archives? It's free you know.

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

Dan S
Have you had Longines pull an extract from the archives? It's free you know.

No, not yet. But do you think these photos would be enough to get one?

Dan S · Aug 11, 2020

Winston_Smith
No, not yet. But do you think these photos would be enough to get one?

Probably. Just go to the Longines website, set up an account, and request an extract, providing the information they request. They will research the watch and send you whatever information they have. Certainly there is no harm in asking, and honestly it's the first thing you should do instead of speculating. They actually have documentation.

https://www.longines.com/en-us/certificate-of-authenticity

DirtyDozen12 · Aug 11, 2020

Thanks for deciphering the marking on the movement. The movement is not gold but gilded brass. The marking may refer to the gold case. Longines and other watches that went to France during this period often had letters on the movements that indicated the case material.

As for the dial, the signature does look relatively crude and it is surprising that it is a different color than the numerals. I wonder if it was added later? Below is an American-market Longines from the period. It has a similar, indelible dial. And as you can see, there is no Longines signature. It is possible that your watch was originally unsigned like this one.

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

Dan S
Probably. Just go to the Longines website, set up an account, and request an extract, providing the information they request. They will research the watch and send you whatever information they have. Certainly there is no harm in asking, and honestly it's the first thing you should do instead of speculating. They actually have documentation.

https://www.longines.com/en-us/certificate-of-authenticity

Just did what you suggested, Dan. Much appreciated, now I'll be waiting for the info to come in.

Dan S · Aug 11, 2020

Winston_Smith
Just did what you suggested, Dan. Much appreciated, now I'll be waiting for the info to come in.

Usually they respond within a few days by email, providing the information from their research. If you request it, they will follow up by sending a certificate by mail.

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

DirtyDozen12
Thanks for deciphering the marking on the movement. The movement is not gold but gilded brass. The marking may refer to the gold case. Longines and other watches that went to France during this period often had letters on the movements that indicated the case material.

As for the dial, the signature does look relatively crude and it is surprising that it is a different color than the numerals. I wonder if it was added later? Below is an American-market Longines from the period. It has a similar, indelible dial. And as you can see, there is no Longines signature. It is possible that your watch was originally unsigned like this one.

How amazing is that, totally makes sense! Wow, it's just beautiful to see the siblings and cousins of my watch across the world! I guess a previous owner of my watch just wanted to make it clear and loud that the watch was Longines and simply got that mark added on the dial. Not my type of acting but we've got it anyways 😀

By the way, according to the following websites, my serial number matches 1915 instead of 1920s as I expected, do you think this information is actually reliable (asking for future reference) : https://www.wristchronology.com/watch-guide/serial-numbers-by-year-2/longines-serial-numbers/ and https://www.catawiki.com/l/19109949-longines-marriage-watch-2282856-men-1901-1949

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

Dan S
Usually they respond within a few days by email, providing the information from their research. If you request it, they will follow up by sending a certificate by mail.

Isn't that certificate (guess also signed by the President of Longines) a paid service?

Dan S · Aug 11, 2020

Winston_Smith
Isn't that certificate (guess also signed by the President of Longines) a paid service?

If you read carefully, you will see that there are two services provided. The Extract from the Archives is free and the Certificate of Authenticity (which requires that you send them the watch) requires payment. Both can involve paper documents. Just read the website.

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

Dan S
If you read carefully, you will see that there are two services provided. The Extract from the Archives is free and the Certificate of Authenticity (which requires that you send them the watch) requires payment. Both can involve paper documents. Just read the website.

Wow, you're right. I will absolutely do that and ask for the Extract as a follow up. Thanks for the tip, btw!

gatorcpa · Aug 11, 2020

https://vintagewatchresources.com/longiness-year-identifier/

I think the dial is original with the blue enamel, but the Longines name was added later. It was very common in those years for Longines to sell watches with no-name dials.

I agree with the Ottoman Turkish provenance as the Longines name is engraved on the movement in both native French and Arabic.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

gatorcpa

https://vintagewatchresources.com/longiness-year-identifier/

I think the dial is original with the blue enamel, but the Longines name was added later. It was very common in those years for Longines to sell watches with no-name dials.

I agree with the Ottoman Turkish provenance as the Longines name is engraved on the movement in both native French and Arabic.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

Sure it helped, thank you so much!

By the way, do you guys think that a watch like this from 1915 would lose too much value because of adding label to the dial or changing the crystal?

Edit: typo

DirtyDozen12 · Aug 11, 2020

Regarding the watch's age, the watch may have been produced around 1915 but Longines generally provides the date of original invoice. In some cases, this date might be very close to the production date. However, there can be quite a gap between production date and invoice date on pre-1930 watches.

gatorcpa · Aug 11, 2020

Winston_Smith
By the way, do you guys think that a watch like this from 1915 would lose too much value because of adding label to the dial or changing the crystal?

Crystals were totally generic back then. Highly unlikely that the one on there now is original. If you replace the crystal, try to get a glass one fitted. It will be a little more expensive, but you will like the the look much better. I promise.

The adding of the name to the dial doesn’t help value, but probably doesn’t hurt it much either.

The value here is mostly in the gold case anyway.
gatorcpa

Winston_Smith · Aug 11, 2020

DirtyDozen12
Regarding the watch's age, the watch may have been produced around 1915 but Longines generally provides the date of original invoice. In some cases, this date might be very close to the production date. However, there can be quite a gap between production date and invoice date on pre-1930 watches.

Oh I see, I've also seen some sample extracts and was expecting it to be the case, particularly for my watch which might have been manufactured during WWI. In any case, I must also add that I think that it shouldn't be too hard for Longines to add a production date in the extract 🙄

gatorcpa
Crystals were totally generic back then. Highly unlikely that the one on there now is original. If you replace the crystal, try to get a glass one fitted. It will be a little more expensive, but you will like the the look much better. I promise.

The adding of the name to the dial doesn’t help value, but probably doesn’t hurt it much either.

The value here is mostly in the gold case anyway.
gatorcpa

The glass that used to be there just fell off while my wife was carrying the watch (yes, it's promoted to a Ladies' watch now), although it wasn't hit or dropped. Not sure if that one (in the pic) was original, either:

Regarding the replacement, the current crystal, it's made of mica glass (don't know if that makes sense?). It was the only one available but it looks nice to me.

A longines from... 1920s? (solved: probably 1915!)

Winston_Smith

DirtyDozen12

Winston_Smith

DirtyDozen12

Winston_Smith

Dan S

Winston_Smith

Dan S

DirtyDozen12

Winston_Smith

Dan S

Winston_Smith

Winston_Smith

Dan S

Winston_Smith

gatorcpa

Winston_Smith

DirtyDozen12

gatorcpa

Winston_Smith

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