Hello All, hoping you can provide some advice for an issue I'm having with my '65 105.003. It's back from service and making a loud clicking noise at irregular intervals when wound. I've uploaded an audio recording here: https://soundcloud.com/rhygin13/speedmaster-321-winding. When the loud click occurs, I can feel the tension in the crown release (something slipping?). There's about 1/8 turn before the tension is back and I hear the normal ratcheting noise. The watchmaker who performed the repair says it's normal. I disagree. What would you do? Some background:

(April) The watch is new to me with unknown service history. It was running a bit fast, and chrono hour wasn't resetting well but otherwise worked fine (didn't have the winding noise problem). Wanted to get a full movement service completed before I spent time wearing it, so I left it with a well-known Hong Kong classic watch repair shop (I live in Vietnam, but travel there often).

(June) Got news that it needed an "hour recorder runner" to fix the chrono reset issue. Ordered a part from Offrei and shipped it to Hong Kong.

(July) Picked up the watch, paid in full and flew home. When I'm home, I try to pull out the crown to set the time and the whole crown and crown stem pop out of the watch entirely. I send the watch back to the watchmaker.

(August) Informed that crown stem and setting lever are not original. I order replacement parts from Offrei and ship to Hong Kong. Offrei part #'s 401/535 and 443/458.

(September) Pick up the watch again. Chrono function is now not working correctly. Pressing start/stop button stops and resets to zero all at the same time. Send back for service again.

(September) "Was just a loose screw" was the response and got the watch back again. Seemed OK and took it home, where I discovered the noise with winding.

Now, we're at a bit of an impasse. I'm not sending the watch back again. I feel like three separate problems after service (none of which were present originally) is enough. I proposed a full or partial refund of the repair cost, but he doesn't feel that there's anything wrong with the watch. What do you think I should do?

 

Yikes, bad experience indeed. Should not have these problems after a full service, IMO, but these can be temperamental movements.

Not excusing the shop, but if it is true that non-original parts were present (which should have been noticed on the first visit!), I must wonder about the original condition of the movement.

If it is truly a reputable shop (who is it by the way?), you may be better off to stop in there on your next trip to show them and try to resolve it in person.

Since you've paid already, and some time ago, unless you have recourse for a claim through your payment method, it's going to be tough to resolve.

 

The watch worked fine when you first bought it.

After service the stem pulled out.

Then they stated that non-original parts were installed (how they were missed during service is questionable).

Then more problems and now a winding issue.

There could be any number of problems that are causing the winding issue, trying to speculate which problem(s) it is, can be next to impossible via a forum.

Short answer, find a qualified skilled watchmaker, send them the watch, and let them identify and fix the defect.

 

Based on your sound file (thanks for including that!) the current winding problem is likely either a broken tooth on the winding pinion or the crown wheel (probably the winding pinion as they fail much more often). Less likely would be the ratchet wheel. The crown wheel is still available, but the winding pinion is not, so finding one will take a bit of time and money. I would probably replace both the winding pinion and crown wheel in this instance, and the ratchet wheel teeth should be inspected for damage (it is still available also) and continuing to wind it with this problem will cause more damage by the way, so I would set it aside and not use until fixed.

Not unusual to have to replace the hour recorder runner, as they often get a flat spot on the cam, and you can only see this with the movement part, so I would not consider this any sort of anomaly or problem with the service.

The setting lever and stem are odd that they would not be original, so that claim is certainly questionable. The hands resetting when the stop button is pressed is typically from the part called the "stem bolt for hammer" being broken/missing, so not sure I buy their loose screw explanation.

I have to ask, why are you supplying all these parts for them? If that was your decision then fine, but if they were the ones asking you to supply parts, that is a big red flag IMO. I agree not sending it back to them is a good idea, and again I would not continue to wind the watch in it's present state.

Cheers, Al

 

I've been suppressing the urge to call him out by-name publicly, although after the latest response from him, I'm starting to reconsider.

 

Yep, I think you're right. Any suggestions?

 

Al, you're amazing. Thanks. Your explanation makes complete sense given what I can hear/feel. In response to the same question (and audio clips), the watchmaker said "If the time setting is smooth then there is no slipping on crown and if the mainspring winds there is no problem." Quite the professional, eh?

At the time, it didn't really bother me but now it does seem to be a flag. He said he couldn't find the part in his network. I showed him Offrei links simply to confirm that we were talking about the same parts. His response: "HI Eric:Honestly I do not have the spare time to play around their site to get the part ordered, but you can just order the part and put us as the shipping address and we can work on it. Cheers"

 

YIKES!!!!!

Run fast the opposite direction from this guy.

 

My dude: I am no expert by any means but this response you post chills me to the bone. You should cease all contact with this person and go to an actual, capable, reputable watchmaker.

 

I'd just like to add that all the hands resetting at once can also be down to a problem with the "Pusher stem for zero action" 321.1758a contacting and snagging on the movement ring or having corrosion on it which can cause it to stick in the actuated position. It could indeed have been caused by the screw that stops this piece falling out not being at the correct tightness. The bottom pusher is doing three things inside the movement when it is pressed, one and two is to reset the centre seconds and minute wheel and three, reset the hour counter. If the zero action stem is not returning to its rest position and bring the operating hour hammer lever fully to rest also this can cause problems. Often the movement needs to be in the movement holder to check everything has enough free play. Sounds like this guy couldn't really have cared less though.

 

Given that I am a BHI Professional watchmaker, naturally I will recommend a BHI repairer. I believe the closest to you would be in Australia, if you need some names let me know and I will supply them.

Having had the benefit of a nights sleep to think over your problem, I offer the following.

Initially the winding was fine. You appear to be a careful owner who wouldn't abuse the watch. After the stem was changed the winding problem appeared. From your description of the problem I suspect that the stem may have been shortened too much, and now it's not allowing the keyless to fully engage into the winding position. The variable slippage you feel could be between the clutch pinion and winding pinion teeth. There are a few checks that you can do yourself to see if the stem has been cut too short:

- is the crown sitting tight up against the case or is there a gap between the case and crown - there should be a gap
- can you feel a positive engagement of the keyless works when you go from time setting to winding, with a positive "snap" as the keyless locks into position - the keyless detent spring should provide positive engagement of each crown position
- can you feel a slight in-out play of the crown when in the winding position, there is normally a small tolerance between the set lever pin that engages into the stem and the stem grove, you should be able to feel this gap as a slight in-out freedom on the crown. Try the crown in the time setting position and push and pull gently to feel for the freeplay, if you can feel it, then this freeplay should also be the same in the winding position, if it's not there, the stem is too short

In my experience I don't suspect a broken gear/wheel/pinion tooth as the cause. I have had numerous watches in over the years with a missing tooth in the keyless, winding, or intermediate motion works gears, and the owners were not aware of the problem. When I put together your commentary and history, I think a too short stem is the cause. It's only a guess like the rest of the commentary, but another opinion you can add to your feedback.

That's my input, hope it helps, and I hope you find someone competent that can sort it out, looking forward to the outcome and rectification.

Rob

BHI Professional Watchmaker
www.roberthoran.eu

 

Rob, many thanks. Correct in the above statement. I wound the watch every day for ~3wks without seeing this issue before I sent it off for service.

- Crown has a gap
- I can feel a positive engagment when moving from "winding" to "time setting" positions. More "detent" then "snap" if that makes sense.
- I can feel noticeable play when in the "time setting" position. Zero play in the "winding" position.

 

Ok, so based on that it sounds like the stem is too short. If you have zero play that suggests to me that the crown is bottoming out on the case tube.

Even though you have a gap in the winding position, that gap may only exist to the case, in other words - the crown may be bottoming out on the case tube before the keyless switches over to the winding position.

I say that based on your "detent" positive engagement comment which is what I would expect you to feel as it switches between each position.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Yes it seems plausible that the crown is contacting the case tube. Attaching a picture.



Slipping in the clutch pinion and winding pinion teeth due to poor engagement also seems plausible as it's irregular. I would have thought missing/broken teeth would have a more regular pattern to the issue.

The part I ordered from Ofrei was called "genuine omega regular stem caliber 321". It sounds like part of the installation process for this component involves trimming it to length??

 

Thanks for the photo.

The irregular action could be a simple as you pressing or pulling slightly on the crown during winding, causing it to engage and disengage. You could do a simple test by pushing against the crown towards the case while winding (forcing the keyless more in the winding position) and noting if the problem goes away due to proper engagement of the pinions.

The stem is supplied much too long for the case, and has to be trimmed. It has to be done slowly and in stages to get the distance just right, it's not unusual for me to have to assemble, test, disassemble, trim, re-assemble, and repeat 10 times or more the fitting of the stem. Once it's too short that's it, you need a new stem or an extender. Many don't take the required time to get it perfect, because it takes time...

 

Tried pushing/pulling the crown when winding but made no difference. There's just nowhere for it to deflect. Would have been a great temporary workaround though.

Very interesting to learn about the installation process for the stem. One of countless examples of why I'd be a terrible watchmaker. Your patience is astounding. To think that you also have the patience to explain all of this to a newbie such as myself is also impressive. Thanks a lot.

 

Ok, thanks for the feedback.

You do indeed need patience in this trade, otherwise it's very frustrating. Your welcome on the explanation, my pleasure, it at least allows you some knowledge and insight on what may be wrong.

 

Thank god mine won't need servicing for 5-6 years all these horror stories about servicing, I'll ask nearer the time who members use in the UK be around 2020-2021

OmegaSean

 

Haha well, these are old watches and with every year that passes there are less and less experts left to work on them. The 321 can be a truly cranky bugger when it wants to be. Servicing one of these is not as simple as a strip, clean, oil and reassemble. There are always worn out and or corroded parts and unless the person doing the work is creative, good at their job and has enough time its never going to work out well!

 

Stem appears to be too long rather than too short, which would not cause the issues you are having (if that is pushed into the winding position).

Often a damaged tooth on the winding pinion will not slip until the watch has a specific amount of tension on the mainspring, so it's not necessarily as regular as you might think. The teeth between the winding and sliding pinion could also be worn, but on this watch it's not common compared to damaged teeth that contact the crown wheel.

Cheers, Al