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2913 FAP from Phillips - from swan to ugly duckling
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COYI
·I wonder if the seller of the watch in the auction has read (or even contributed) to this thread. If so, thanks to Kox, I'd be sweating a bit if I was him!
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Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderThis is a highly unusual forum.
The exceptional interface and architecture makes it the easiest to participate and follow of any forum I have seen - I do not underestimate the part this plays in drawing us all in. Ease of use makes for more posts and more participants.
We are a broad mixture here, but all feel happy to give away more than we take, and to enjoy all the debates however heated. The one thing that I like here is the almost bottomless honesty, and freedom to criticise in almost any way - as long as you are ready to take a debate. And for the most part these debates have been open and honest, knowledge based and interesting.
The knowledge shared here is freely given, and without condition or for personal gain. We can all make mistakes, and when we do, we are corrected more often than not with attitudes that take into account that no one is trying to take financial advantage of us. Many people I have met are very talented (sometimes in a narrow and obscure field). For the most part, we are not “normal”.
More than once people have said, “oh you just hate all dealers”. Nonsense. Dealers are a part of life. But they have to have different priorities than a collector, or they won’t eat and their children won’t go to school.
So When a dealer comes to this forum, and takes a defensive position regarding a watch - I cannot take what he says in the same way as a collector. This is not the first time this has happened, here on this forum. It never ends well, mainly because they were not able to put their hands up and go, ok I was wrong, you have a point. (I suspect too many dinners with PR girls).
There are other dealers here who share passion with their watches, without taking a financially motivated position in defense of a watch. They have found a way to be completely open and honest in a range that suits them, sharing acquisitions and knowledge, without compromising their business nor being light on the truth.
Its all down to honesty. With hindsight, it was spectacularly ill advised of Sacha to make such a meal defending a watch that has passed through his hands without disclosing it.
Now here is the thing. I would rather have Sacha come back and share more passion about other watches. We know what happened, and as long as he knows what happened, I am sure he will have much to contribute to this forum in the future. He made a mistake. If its the only one he makes he is better than me.
The exceptional interface and architecture makes it the easiest to participate and follow of any forum I have seen - I do not underestimate the part this plays in drawing us all in. Ease of use makes for more posts and more participants.
We are a broad mixture here, but all feel happy to give away more than we take, and to enjoy all the debates however heated. The one thing that I like here is the almost bottomless honesty, and freedom to criticise in almost any way - as long as you are ready to take a debate. And for the most part these debates have been open and honest, knowledge based and interesting.
The knowledge shared here is freely given, and without condition or for personal gain. We can all make mistakes, and when we do, we are corrected more often than not with attitudes that take into account that no one is trying to take financial advantage of us. Many people I have met are very talented (sometimes in a narrow and obscure field). For the most part, we are not “normal”.
More than once people have said, “oh you just hate all dealers”. Nonsense. Dealers are a part of life. But they have to have different priorities than a collector, or they won’t eat and their children won’t go to school.
So When a dealer comes to this forum, and takes a defensive position regarding a watch - I cannot take what he says in the same way as a collector. This is not the first time this has happened, here on this forum. It never ends well, mainly because they were not able to put their hands up and go, ok I was wrong, you have a point. (I suspect too many dinners with PR girls).
There are other dealers here who share passion with their watches, without taking a financially motivated position in defense of a watch. They have found a way to be completely open and honest in a range that suits them, sharing acquisitions and knowledge, without compromising their business nor being light on the truth.
Its all down to honesty. With hindsight, it was spectacularly ill advised of Sacha to make such a meal defending a watch that has passed through his hands without disclosing it.
Now here is the thing. I would rather have Sacha come back and share more passion about other watches. We know what happened, and as long as he knows what happened, I am sure he will have much to contribute to this forum in the future. He made a mistake. If its the only one he makes he is better than me.
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M'Bob
·Now here is the thing. I would rather have Sasha come back and share more passion about other watches. We know what happened, and as long as he knows what happened, I am sure he will have much to contribute to this forum in the future. He made a mistake. If its the only one he makes he is better than me
"...better than I." 😀
To your point: we have had a rash of sexual abuse charges against prominent figures in the US, now on an almost daily basis. The thing is, those who are truly contrite, who understand their transgressions and admit their mistakes, to me, are more likely to be forgiven than those who dig their heels in, and profess their innocence, when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. To wit: I would enjoy more from Sacha, and I think most would, if just a modicum of contrition were offered.
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watchyouwant
·I have to agree with this. I do think we are reacting very negatively to watches which have been restored. This is a touchy subject and becomes more touchy the more expensive a watch is. Furthermore the question of how much research should be done prior to a sale is important.
I've said this before: Is ignorance really bliss? Is everybody happy ever after with a sale, as long as they believe that their 60 year old watch is all original, and very unhappy when they find out it has been restored? It's still the same watch in the same condition after all. I believe there should be more tolerance and even admiration for well-restored watches.
Of course this does not give anybody the right to deceive and claim it hasn't been restored, which is something else entirely. It is a very difficult thing to claim that a watch hasn't been restored and needs proof of this fact for decades which is usually not possible with most of these vintage watches.............
We are not the only ones, struggling with these terms...... the Vintage Rolex Forum banned the word " unpolished " , because that is something nobody can claim ,if the Rolex has been serviced in the past. same here with Omegas. they have been serviced in the last 50 plus years, or they would be dead. we need to be more careful with thrown around terms like " fake ", " franken ", " barn find " a.s.o. ,because everybody projects something else into these terms. and they do not help. they can easily kill the joy of vintage watches. to be worn. not treated as an investment piece to sell at retirement age. just be happy and enjoy whatever you have and if the occasion arises, upgrade to next best available example. In general terms: it is astonishing, how much knowledge we have on this forum ! we might need a special section on this forum for keeping posts alive and store them for the future. sure there is the risk, that Fakers will read as well and the fakes get better every time. but that is the curse of the internet. and can`t be avoided. kind regards from down under. achim
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watchyouwant
·Well - opinion is divided - there's mine and everyone elses !
Very briefly, my two penneth.
Full disclosure is is important, but it is unlikely that the staff of any auction house will be as knowledgeable as true collectors and afficionados. The same can be said of many dealers and indeed owners of 'special' watches.
I would challenge anyone on this forum to be a 100% expert in all the major collectable brands - and that's without specifying models. So how can we expect and demand that the auction house staff be an ultimate authority.
Consequently, it's very definitely up to the buyer to ascertain (by whatever means) the true provenance of anything he intends to purchase.
The above aside - personally, I have no problem with a watch that has been 'improved' in both aesthetics and value by the addition of original or correctly restored parts.
After all, digging below the surface of the dial and bezel - how many of us know what mechanical repairs the movement may have had in it's life ? Have components been replaced with factory spares, or generic, or have they made on a watchmakers lathe ?? This may not have as much impact as a dial or bezel, but it still detracts from total 'originality'.
Clearly, any replacement or restored components should be openly revealed (where known) and the buyer will decide his maximum price accordingly, but not without considerable research.
I would also suggest that as the supply of perfect examples of 'grail' pieces becomes more scarce - the less perfect versions including re-done dials and bezels will climb in price to fill the demand 'void'.
I suspect that if we were to revisit the example at the centre of this thread in a couple of years - it will seem a very good buy indeed.
Anyway - as I said - this is just my own opinion.
And something to add: ALL Auction houses deal with many,many watches in a short time span before auctions. you overestimate the Sellers Power, to tell the auction house " experts ",what to write in the auction description. i had these problems with Bonhams in
London and Christies in NY. In both auctions i gave specific details about the watches at auction incl. Omega`s Excerpts. but they all stuffed up. you deal with BIG EGOS at Auction Houses. The guys, who describe the auction text, think they know better and write what they want anyway. even the agreed condition in sending the text before publishing, was not met. only the threat of withdrawing my watches from the auctions after they printed the catalogue and internet presentation led to a " auction room notice ". which is stupid, because that only reaches the actual present buyers in the room. i lost a lot of money that way. if you are a collector/dealer, who buys at auctions, you get many, many auction catalogues the the November/December auctions worldwide. if the Headline does not grab your attention, then your fate is sealed. if they do not describe a rare military watch as a military watch, you loose a lot of potential buyers. This is another Facett in the Auction House game...... kind regards. achim
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maxbelg
·We are not the only ones, struggling with these terms...... the Vintage Rolex Forum banned the word " unpolished " , because that is something nobody can claim ,if the Rolex has been serviced in the past. same here with Omegas. they have been serviced in the last 50 plus years, or they would be dead. we need to be more careful with thrown around terms like " fake ", " franken ", " barn find "...................................................
I agree. This post shows that descriptions in auctions should be taken with a pinch of salt. For some "Ignorance is bliss" and as long as there's no evidence to the contrary they can happily believe that their watch left the factory with the same parts. It is however nearly impossible to prove whether a watch had parts changed, even a one-owner watch. The owner might not even know or the owner passed away and the seller doesn't know.......
It's much easier to show that a watch was indeed restored as I did in this post: https://omegaforums.net/threads/thoughts-on-a-145-012-67.65807/ I won't personally pay a premium for the "provenance" which might turn out to be a fable. I am prepared to pay a premium for an excellent watch with overall compatible patina and period-correct original parts.
We need a "sticky" with acceptable terminology for descriptions. Maybe the auction houses will then even take it for their descriptions in future. 😁 There are others far better than me for compiling such a list with examples below, hint, hint 😉....
Franken: A watch with incorrect parts for the reference
Restored: Some parts replaced with original, period-correct parts
Polished: not used anymore due to inability to prove unpolished state
Assembled: There was no "original" watch which was restored, only parts turned into a watch
Barn Find: Seller claims this is a true Original (see original)
Original: Should be "presumed original". Possibly the watch left the factory with all of these parts, as the story fits and the parts look compatible.
........
........
The big problem will come once fake parts become indistinguishable from genuine parts!
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Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster Hoarderfake parts will almost always become identifiable - at some point.
It is the period between manufacture and discovery (Or widespread recognition) that is so difficult.
We can look at gemstones for a history. When the first synthetic rubies were discovered, or created, the price of rubies crashed. But only after several people were conned for big money. But quickly the trade found identifiable characteristics of the man made ones, and rubies came back. Not for small sizes though, as synthetics were so much easier and cheaper to use, for watch jewels - no worries about flaws.
However these were Verneuil's flame fusion rubies, with easily seen curved growth lines. (if you know how to look). Then someone grew a flux-melt ruby and once again, prices tumbled, until the trade learned to recognise them (they had natural appearing inclusions, until you learned they were not....). As before, several people were duped.
The last pages to this story concern heat treatment and glass filling of rubies, both of which also caused price fluctuations and loss of confidence.
Now the price of a Burmese Ruby is higher than it has ever been, despite all the synthetics and treatments.
So with watches, I do see non original parts being a problem in the short term. Indeed I now value 2915-1 bezels as recent repro because I cannot tell. There are those that say they can differentiate, but until that information and skill is widespread, it is of no use when I value a 2915. But it probably will happen, and then those metal rings will once again be worth several times their weight in gold. (Or rubies for that matter).
As to reproduction dials, or hands, or printed bezels, I agree that counterfeiters ought to be able to do it, but it seems those with the real skill to do it lack the desire. So far.
To fool us here, the hegemony of OF, a repro dial has to be perfect down to pixel level, because that's what we do, blow up the pictures and examine the pixels. To replicate the aging on the back of a dial, or the patina on a plot, is not something I think a counterfeiter would spend the time, and multiple failures, to do.
Again yet but my instincts are that they never will. They might throw us for a while, just like the 2915 bezel, but not permanently.
Being nearly good enough, nearly perfect replica, nearly looking the same - thats 1m miles away.
It is the period between manufacture and discovery (Or widespread recognition) that is so difficult.
We can look at gemstones for a history. When the first synthetic rubies were discovered, or created, the price of rubies crashed. But only after several people were conned for big money. But quickly the trade found identifiable characteristics of the man made ones, and rubies came back. Not for small sizes though, as synthetics were so much easier and cheaper to use, for watch jewels - no worries about flaws.
However these were Verneuil's flame fusion rubies, with easily seen curved growth lines. (if you know how to look). Then someone grew a flux-melt ruby and once again, prices tumbled, until the trade learned to recognise them (they had natural appearing inclusions, until you learned they were not....). As before, several people were duped.
The last pages to this story concern heat treatment and glass filling of rubies, both of which also caused price fluctuations and loss of confidence.
Now the price of a Burmese Ruby is higher than it has ever been, despite all the synthetics and treatments.
So with watches, I do see non original parts being a problem in the short term. Indeed I now value 2915-1 bezels as recent repro because I cannot tell. There are those that say they can differentiate, but until that information and skill is widespread, it is of no use when I value a 2915. But it probably will happen, and then those metal rings will once again be worth several times their weight in gold. (Or rubies for that matter).
As to reproduction dials, or hands, or printed bezels, I agree that counterfeiters ought to be able to do it, but it seems those with the real skill to do it lack the desire. So far.
To fool us here, the hegemony of OF, a repro dial has to be perfect down to pixel level, because that's what we do, blow up the pictures and examine the pixels. To replicate the aging on the back of a dial, or the patina on a plot, is not something I think a counterfeiter would spend the time, and multiple failures, to do.
Again yet but my instincts are that they never will. They might throw us for a while, just like the 2915 bezel, but not permanently.
Being nearly good enough, nearly perfect replica, nearly looking the same - thats 1m miles away.
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M'Bob
·To fool us here, the hegemony of OF, a repro dial has to be perfect down to pixel level, because that's what we do, blow up the pictures and examine the pixels. To replicate the aging on the back of a dial, or the patina on a plot, is not something I think a counterfeiter would spend the time, and multiple failures, to do.
Again yet but my instincts are that they never will. They might throw us for a while, just like the 2915 bezel, but not permanently
I sincerely hope that you are correct, and I applaud your optimism. Still, on some level, I think it's a shame that if you're a hobbyist in a particular venue, and interest and prices start to rise, you have to either turn into a detective, or hope that others are interested in doing so, in order to avoid getting fleeced. Per your example, this practice has been going on, probably since the beginning of trade. Doesn't mean I have to like it...
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Joe K.
··Curious about this text thingy below his avatarI think it all comes down to value. If the item sells at a high enough premium, you can be sure there will be counterfeiters working away to get it right. One only needs to look at the Rolex world, to realize that some fakes are so good, that it takes sending it back to an official center to identify as such. I expect as the value of rare Omega keeps rising, so will the efforts of counterfeiters increase until they reach the fake Rolex world standards. My 2c.
To fool us here, the hegemony of OF, a repro dial has to be perfect down to pixel level, because that's what we do, blow up the pictures and examine the pixels. To replicate the aging on the back of a dial, or the patina on a plot, is not something I think a counterfeiter would spend the time, and multiple failures, to do.
Again yet but my instincts are that they never will. They might throw us for a while, just like the 2915 bezel, but not permanently.
Being nearly good enough, nearly perfect replica, nearly looking the same - thats 1m miles away.
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M'Bob
·you deal with BIG EGOS at Auction Houses. The guys, who describe the auction text, think they know better and write what they want anyway
This is so true, and most unfortunate.
I have heard the argument that these "experts" can't be expected to have an in-depth knowledge about the nuances of every brand. Fair enough. But let's use an example from medicine: a general practitioner knows a lot about many disorders, but if they are either stumped or suspicious that an ailment falls out of their area of expertise, what do they do? (If no big ego there also...). They send you to, or consult with a specialist.
In fact, on many fora, there are pockets of experts that know a phenomenal amount about very specific watch issues. In stead of sitting in the auction house ivory towers, when there is a pressing question: why not engage the watch collector community? Does it undermine their expertise? I think not: it shows honesty, and besides, it's good public relations.
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Beepos
·This is so true, and most unfortunate.
I have heard the argument that these "experts" can't be expected to have an in-depth knowledge about the nuances of every brand. Fair enough. But let's use an example from medicine: a general practitioner knows a lot about many disorders, but if they are either stumped or suspicious that an ailment falls out of their area of expertise, what do they do? (If no big ego there also...). They send you to, or consult with a specialist.
In fact, on many fora, there are pockets of experts that know a phenomenal amount about very specific watch issues. In stead of sitting in the auction house ivory towers, when there is a pressing question: why not engage the watch collector community? Does it undermine their expertise? I think not: it shows honesty, send besides, it's good public relations.
Maybe I'm just a cynical bastard, but it undermines their bottom line...
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Kpdp54
·Postcard from our favorite dealers 😁
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maxbelg
·The thing is, it's sort of surprising, that I'm surprised by this sort of thing................ 🙁
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Humptymarsbar
·At least the bloke on the left is getting a reach around.
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