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2913 FAP from Phillips - from swan to ugly duckling
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jumpingsecond
·Why shouldn't an auction house- who is getting paid thousands of dollars on commissions of sales on these watches- not be able to investigate the watches they are selling? Isn't this- literally their job to do so?
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roh123
·Why shouldn't an auction house- who is getting paid thousands of dollars on commissions of sales on these watches- not be able to investigate the watches they are selling? Isn't this- literally their job to do so?
I am personally curious about the lume on the dial. Anyone have macros of another dial for comparison? The sloppy lume application does to me hint of a relume but I am not enough experienced with these to know if it is common for them to leave the factory looking like that or not. Also the bezel is interesting to discuss further. 😀
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CajunTiger
·Why shouldn't an auction house- who is getting paid thousands of dollars on commissions of sales on these watches- not be able to investigate the watches they are selling? Isn't this- literally their job to do so?
Because it’s simply not possible. The research uncovered on this watch is known by one person...there isn’t a database of serial numbers you can go look up. For the most part the watch was nicely restored. IMO the reactions here are more about the fact that someone paid a 300% premium for a watch that has issues AND was described by the auction house as “original” with no basis for that information. If the watch was sold by the estate of the original purchaser, then that term is accepted by most collectors (mostly because they are savvy enough to know it’s impossible to know for sure). But when it has changed hands multiple times in a short period of time, that term should no longer be used without supporting documentation. If the watch was described as “nicely restored” we would be having another discussion.
Quite frankly the buyer should have asked questions prior to bidding. If he did and was misinformed, then that’s another story.
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roh123
·Quite frankly the buyer should have asked questions prior to bidding. If he did and was misinformed, then that’s another story.
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sxl2004
·I do not agree with Sacha above that we are hurting the vintage market while we react and discuss this. I think it is healthy to be open with what we see and talk about it. Sure it is not great for the community with all the cheating but on the other hand things will only get worse if we don't talk about it. As long as the demand side screams for top quality this is what we will get. In most cases the watches will already be prepared before it end up on auctions or at your favourite dealer.
I would like to point out that "ruining/hurting the vintage market" has different meanings for at least two groups of participants.
Dealers; talking about flaws, fakes, original and misinformation on the seller's side hurts their business by letting a little bit air out of the well inflated balloon.
Buyers: talking about flaws, fakes, original and misinformation on the buyer's side is education and information in a shady market environment. (and you would not be surprised that dealers in the shady parts of business do not like it 🙄). That why it is important to identify the trust worthy dealers who are willing to discuss and educate.
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ICONO
·[QUOTE="PerJ, post: 836848, member: 27586
......Maybe this was a steal in 5-10 years. 😀[/QUOTE]
And maybe it will not be....
Suspect this particular watch, has its card, well and truly marked......perhaps, forever a question mark ?
It will interesting to see, if it surfaces again.....in a further iteration ?
......Maybe this was a steal in 5-10 years. 😀[/QUOTE]
And maybe it will not be....
Suspect this particular watch, has its card, well and truly marked......perhaps, forever a question mark ?
It will interesting to see, if it surfaces again.....in a further iteration ?
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lottemann
·Maybe a bit harsh as a first appearance ;-)
My name is Michael and I have read this thread with great interest!
Thanks for all the knowledge shared.
Beeing described as it was by Phillips, I would feel fooled, if I was the buyer.
Regards,
Michael
My name is Michael and I have read this thread with great interest!
Thanks for all the knowledge shared.
Beeing described as it was by Phillips, I would feel fooled, if I was the buyer.
Regards,
Michael
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roh123
·I would like to point out that "ruining/hurting the vintage market" has different meanings for at least two groups of participants.
Dealers; talking about flaws, fakes, original and misinformation on the seller's side hurts their business by letting a little bit air out of the well inflated balloon.
Buyers: talking about flaws, fakes, original and misinformation on the buyer's side is education and information in a shady market environment. (and you would not be surprised that dealers in the shady parts of business do not like it 🙄). That why it is important to identify the trust worthy dealers who are willing to discuss and educate.
The problem is that even great dealers wont sort out issues every time. A lot of watches these days are sold in multiple steps after found and a dealer can only expect watches to be correct when they reach them. I have personally bought a great watch from a well-known dealer where I later could trace it back to another dealer where the watch looked completely different. I do not want to go into details but it was a lot of things which weren't as it started and of course that isn't very fun when you realise it. In my case I believe the dealers as I think it was cheated with at a collector or two in between. It still shows that even great dealers with stellar reputation can't do much more than to use their eyes and trust their gut with watches.
When threads like this pop up dealers and auction houses get hurt. Why pay a big premium to buy a watch from Phillips, Christies or a top dealer if you can't buy peace of mind? It's really not a fun situation.
As for this watch; I think it will perform well next time at auction. Forums may be important for many of us but in the end there are a lot of buyers not following OF, VRF etc. The watch is now approved by Phillips etc and that will weigh much more than this thread and the history of this watch which was available even before the Phillips auction.
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jhross98
·Indeed.
The problem is that even great dealers wont sort out issues every time. A lot of watches these days are sold in multiple steps after found and a dealer can only expect watches to be correct when they reach them. I have personally bought a great watch from a well-known dealer where I later could trace it back to another dealer where the watch looked completely different. I do not want to go into details but it was a lot of things which weren't as it started and of course that isn't very fun when you realise it. In my case I believe the dealers as I think it was cheated with at a collector or two in between. It still shows that even great dealers with stellar reputation can't do much more than to use their eyes and trust their gut with watches.
When threads like this pop up dealers and auction houses get hurt. Why pay a big premium to buy a watch from Phillips, Christies or a top dealer if you can't buy peace of mind? It's really not a fun situation.
As for this watch; I think it will perform well next time at auction. Forums may be important for many of us but in the end there are a lot of buyers not following OF, VRF etc. The watch is now approved by Phillips etc and that will weigh much more than this thread and the history of this watch which was available even before the Phillips auction.
agree this this last point. . there are many examples of suspect watches being sold and re-sold through phillips and making new highs each time
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GordonL
·I have essentially zero experince of these watches but this is an extremely interesting and educational thread. thanks to all who are contributing!
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watchknut
·This thread is what it is because the watch blew out its estimate, much to the surprise of everyone that was watching it.
Our fun little hobby of collecting Omega has gone from a corner of the internet to the international spotlight. With that comes a whole new set of behaviors that many of us do not understand or agree with because we do not play at the elevated levels.
If you remove the Phillips marketing language, the chain of ownership, and look at the watch itself, the main question is whether or not the parts are real. Most are in agreement that the watch is period correct with the main question mark being the bezel.
When it comes to the bezel, the evaluation is subjective, based on what is known by the person evaluating. In this case Sacha used his knowledge and process (i.e. UV and database of known inserts) to make his determination that the bezel was original. Could there have been an error there? Possibly.
What is very telling is that Sacha inserted himself into this conversation when he did not have to. What does he gain with this? He is towing a very difficult line...a dealer and a passionate collector and scholar - a strong voice and advocate in the market.
Sacha has done for me what no other high powered dealer has...he pays attention to me because he is passionate and appreciates my passion. I don't have any money (relatively speaking) and will probably never be in the position to buy from him, but that doesn't matter, he hung up his dealer hat and put on his collector hat to help out on my FAP. He shared his research from the Archives, and told me not to touch the watch or restore the bezel...that I would regret it. He also gives me market insight and advice when I ask for it....he doesn't have to do that.
Some will say, "Matt, of course he is being nice, he wants your watches..." that may be the case, but I don't really care because he treats me with respect. If and when the time comes to move my FAP, I will definitely consider working with Sacha on it.
Did Kox pull back the curtain on this watch...he sure did, and kudos to him.
Did Sacha come on here and give his side of the story...he sure did, and we all need to appreciate that, whether we agree with him or not. It shows that he respects this forum and its members.
Phillips...well, we can all make our own determinations.
Threads like this is what keeps us all honest, and honesty is the name of the game here.
Seeing this FAP result, I am thinking out partnering with @gemini4 for one his perfect bezels😝...I mean what on earth would a true 1 owner FAP with a perfect untouched bezel bring?
Our fun little hobby of collecting Omega has gone from a corner of the internet to the international spotlight. With that comes a whole new set of behaviors that many of us do not understand or agree with because we do not play at the elevated levels.
If you remove the Phillips marketing language, the chain of ownership, and look at the watch itself, the main question is whether or not the parts are real. Most are in agreement that the watch is period correct with the main question mark being the bezel.
When it comes to the bezel, the evaluation is subjective, based on what is known by the person evaluating. In this case Sacha used his knowledge and process (i.e. UV and database of known inserts) to make his determination that the bezel was original. Could there have been an error there? Possibly.
What is very telling is that Sacha inserted himself into this conversation when he did not have to. What does he gain with this? He is towing a very difficult line...a dealer and a passionate collector and scholar - a strong voice and advocate in the market.
Sacha has done for me what no other high powered dealer has...he pays attention to me because he is passionate and appreciates my passion. I don't have any money (relatively speaking) and will probably never be in the position to buy from him, but that doesn't matter, he hung up his dealer hat and put on his collector hat to help out on my FAP. He shared his research from the Archives, and told me not to touch the watch or restore the bezel...that I would regret it. He also gives me market insight and advice when I ask for it....he doesn't have to do that.
Some will say, "Matt, of course he is being nice, he wants your watches..." that may be the case, but I don't really care because he treats me with respect. If and when the time comes to move my FAP, I will definitely consider working with Sacha on it.
Did Kox pull back the curtain on this watch...he sure did, and kudos to him.
Did Sacha come on here and give his side of the story...he sure did, and we all need to appreciate that, whether we agree with him or not. It shows that he respects this forum and its members.
Phillips...well, we can all make our own determinations.
Threads like this is what keeps us all honest, and honesty is the name of the game here.
Seeing this FAP result, I am thinking out partnering with @gemini4 for one his perfect bezels😝...I mean what on earth would a true 1 owner FAP with a perfect untouched bezel bring?
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gemini4
··Hoarder Of Speed et aliaSure thing, we can install one of my bezels and call it absolutely original to the watch 
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ConElPueblo
·For a limited period of wrist time, say - half an hour, I'll keep schtumm! 😗
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wkimmd
·This thread is what it is because the watch blew out its estimate, much to the surprise of everyone that was watching it.
...
Threads like this is what keeps us all honest, and honesty is the name of the game here.
Seeing this FAP result, I am thinking out partnering with @gemini4 for one his perfect bezels😝...I mean what on earth would a true 1 owner FAP with a perfect untouched bezel bring?
Well said -
W
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M'Bob
·This thread has been great; I love the smell of first-world problems in the morning.
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kov
·This thread is very educational, indeed. The most I’ve learned so far is about different people. 😀
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