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MaiLollo
·Let me smile @eugeneandresson- this year you've snapped a superb 105.002, a 105.003, a 145.022-82, a #ST, a Tintin - stop trolling 😉
Well done, dude 👍
2913 FAP from Phillips – from swan to ugly duckling
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tyrantlizardrex
·No it’s not. The lesson is : knowing the right people - your network. I live in Switzerland and I haven’t seen nor been offered Soleil dials, racings, Alaska’s or the like. I don’t know any old people, nor do I have watchmaker or dealer friends, or even have friends who care about watches. I hunt all the regular channels here, same as most people and there is 99.9% crap.
I think the lesson that having knowledge, a little (or big depending on what you're hunting) pot of cash, and the patience and persistence to keep looking pays off.
All of my best buys have pretty much come from eBay.
Over the weekend I grabbed a 145.013 flightmaster from the son of the original owner. The original owner bought it in Manchester in 1972 as a 40th Birthday present to himself.
It doesn't run, it's not been serviced, I bought it based on three awful pictures, and a lot of acquired knowledge.
Perhaps if anything, the lesson is that there is no lesson... beyond that gathering a deep understanding of the prey that you hunt, will give you a better chance of catching them. 😉
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ConElPueblo
·I'll say it again - either you spend a lot of time on this hobby or you spend a lot of money.
I'd probably be as gutted to find out that a cheap watch bought on eBay with blurry photos turned out to be a redial, as the buyer of this Seamaster was to find out that it was a franken.
I'd probably be as gutted to find out that a cheap watch bought on eBay with blurry photos turned out to be a redial, as the buyer of this Seamaster was to find out that it was a franken.
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eugeneandresson
·It's almost creepy the way you can trace all of the watches sold each year 😁
Totally creepy / scary!!!! #stalker 😝
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eugeneandresson
·either you spend a lot of time on this hobby or you spend a lot of money.
...or both! you give it e v er y t h i n g ...
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TsoloT
·Let me kindly disagree. But here are my arguments 😀
@MaiLollo bought a racing dial from a Craigslist like website in France. I have been offered one Grey and one black in the last twelve months.
A friend of mine here in CH bought a soleil dial as well as a Grey dial from old people (no clue if they were first owners or not and I don’t care) both in 2017.
Alaska radial dial with engraved numbers on the case back has been offered to my watchmaker’s sales guy at the store by gypsies here in CH - the sales guy didn’t know what it is and declined the offer. No BS - the guy made photos, I saw them, he also almost got fired because of that 😁 Also in 2017.
What a year !!! Not really... they are simply out there. 😗
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Lucasssssss
·I think the lesson that having knowledge, a little (or big depending on what you're hunting) pot of cash, and the patience and persistence to keep looking pays off.
All of my best buys have pretty much come from eBay.
Over the weekend I grabbed a 145.013 flightmaster from the son of the original owner. The original owner bought it in Manchester in 1972 as a 40th Birthday present to himself.
It doesn't run, it's not been serviced, I bought it based on three awful pictures, and a lot of acquired knowledge.
Perhaps if anything, the lesson is that there is no lesson... beyond that gathering a deep understanding of the prey that you hunt, will give you a better chance of catching them. 😉
I am pretty sure I saw this one, looked like a great catch, I would have been trying to buy it if I had the funds. Good luck with it!
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cristos71
·Once upon a time …📖
No, this is not the fairy tale by our very own Hans Christian Andersen, but more a reverse version made true by the more shady frankeners in the dark corners of the vintage watch world.
This bird started out as a beautiful swan in 1961. But became an ugly duckling and in the process ended up like the black swan. It lost its innocence. Its authenticity.
Back to the real world: Lot 201 from yesterdays Phillips auction. Reference 2913 (-7 as it turns out). Serial 16684517. Produced on 28. April 1961. FAP marked and confirmed delivered to the Peruvian Air Forces.
What’s not to like? When I first saw it I thought ”a nice one and a very very strong result”. Then I looked closer and checked the serial with the ones in my archieves… and here’s what I found:
Serial and caseback scratches are the same throughout the history, but the face, oh the face. What a horror. For the record, I have no doubt that this is/was a 2913 FAP issued watch. The serial range is within the know range. Caseback marking is correct. It has the correct type of hands etc. BUT the transformation over the years 🤬. Sellers pictures below are bad, but can’t hide the obvious.
#1 For sale on chrono24 (2015). Repainted or fake dial and no bezel inlay. Extract states delivery to Peru only.
#2 For sale on chrono24 (2016, same seller). Dial replaced with a correct, but very tired one.
#3 For sale on chrono24 and here on OF (2016, same seller). Now with a bezel “inlay”, which seems to have issues. Looks like the chinese aluminum reproductions.
#4 For sale on the Phillips auction (2017, new seller properly). Now with a nice correct dial and a nicer redone bezel. Perhaps lume touch-up. Hard to tell from one picture. No movement shot, but text states a cal. 501 17Jewels !? (US version cal 500) Properly just a typo (earlier add shows 19J cal 501 which is ok). Extract now states delivery to Peruvian Air Forces (new policy at Omega Museum to include more notes). Same serial and still same caseback.
Looks good right 🙄 Realised price is CHF 56t. 😲
Sellers asking in 2016 was Euro 17t. (which was high enough for this condition). CHF 56t. !!! More than the perhaps most wanted SM300 of them all, a Conself ll 165.024 sold at Christies today for CHF 50t.
From the phillips auction text: ” The present example is preserved in most attractive and original condition “
So whats the moral of the story. Is it a problem that the parts have been changed - clearly to help sales? Well, no, not if you disclose it. The previous owner/dealer didn’t and the auction house didn’t/didn’t know or didn’t run a simple check on the interwebs and now it is sanctions by them. Talk about authenticity laundering.
Well, perhaps the buyer don’t care and just enjoy the watch for what it is. Right 🙁
We all know that a 100% autenthic vintage watch is a hard claim. No one really knows if parts have been swapped in the last 60 years. And if the parts are correct for the reference/serial, perhaps that’s fine, as long as you don’t know. BUT when the truth comes out, it’s stigmatized – from a collectors point of view. From my point of view.
/The end
P.S.: sorry for the buyer if he DOES care, but especially at this price level, someone should tell the truth, since it’s cleary now more an investment piece. No real collector at this level would have neglected to do the basic research before a bidding war.
P.S.S.: And all the frankeners who think they can get away with it, didn't live happily ever after
Looks like dial #2 and #3 is doing the rounds again 😵💫 Buyer beware for this 2913 with the dial only a mother could love!
https://www.worldoftime.de/en/omega/seamaster-22161.html#prettyPhoto
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bags1971
·World of time took abit of a beating today on his watches
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jhross98
·
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micampe
·
The Phillips response, for those that don’t want to look through the comments to find it:
phillipswatches said:Following this post, we've examined the photos, and even without having the watch in our hands again, we agree the dial appears to have been altered at some point before it was originally consigned with us. We are in the process of reaching out to the buyer to extend our apologies and invite him to return the watch for a full refund. Since our founding in 2014, Phillips has always sold watches in good faith, and the authenticity of the watches we offer is of paramount importance. We’ve always pledged to address problematic watches in our auctions in good faith in response to any issues raised by the community. Outside of our own due diligence process, if a watch is proven to be of questionable authenticity before it’s sold, we respond by removing it. In the event a watch is sold and is later determined to be problematic, we back all of our watches with an authenticity guarantee to protect our buyers. We thank @perezcope for bringing this issue to our attention. We love watches as much as you do and are committed to strengthening this community together with all of you. We apologize to the community, and as always, we welcome your constructive feedback and look forward to enjoying this mutual passion together for many years to come.
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jhross98
·interestingly hundreds of comments that were hugely critical of Phillips were subsequently wiped. . .
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Mods
·Imagine if it was Watches of Knightsbridge...they would of have threatened to sue everyone on Instagram 😗
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kox
·Looks like dial #2 and #3 is doing the rounds again 😵💫 Buyer beware for this 2913 with the dial only a mother could love!
https://www.worldoftime.de/en/omega/seamaster-22161.html#prettyPhoto
Besides the dial, the other parts put together on this one are quite, hmmm qustionable.
Text says 2913-8, cal 501, but pictures say cal 552 and inner caseback ref 165014-63. But picture of outer caseback clearly is of a 2913 caseback. Wonder what the extract says 🤦
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watchyouwant
·Brilliant, Cox ! you are the Seamaster 300 Master. kind regards. achim
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