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22409 owned by german flying ace Erich Hartmann?

  1. Redondo444 Nov 16, 2023

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    Yesterday/day before yesterday a nice 22409 with inverted pushers popped up on chrono with (seems to be) 7xxxxx serial no.

    It was gone quicker then I could see.

    Looks nice and there were engraving with JG52 (Jagdgeschwader 52) and "E.H" at the back of the watch and also "Bubi" (nickname of Erich Hartmann) inside the case back.
    Not sure if it's really the watch of the most famous german fighter pilot.


    Serial is 7xxxxx (lowest I have seen so far / only saw 8xxxxx and above) - which dates to 1938-1941.

    JG52 was founded in '38/'39.

    "Compur" is written with a flat U and not really sure about the lettering of everything - just looks a bit off but hard to say.

    In general the condition of the case was very good.
    Not sure if case was reworked as it looks really good at first sight.

    So it's more a question here to military watch experts and/or universal geneve experts if it could have really belonged to Erich Hartmann and if the engravings are correct / possible and if it's not a hoax.

    Some links on Erich Hartmann and JG52
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_52


    I did some research and found out Erich Hartmann usually wore a german branded Hanhart watch (monopusher).

    I can't find the forum link as of now where it was stated - but they related to a book about Erich Hartman where I think it it is stated he wore a Hanhart watch.
    If I find the link will update it here.


    Here some pics of this (from my perspective) nice and potentially interesting watch:
    IMG_20231116_194656.jpg IMG_20231116_194808.jpg IMG_20231116_194940.jpg IMG_20231116_195007.jpg IMG_20231116_194731.jpg IMG_20231116_194914.jpg IMG_20231116_194852.jpg IMG_20231116_194834.jpg


    Cross reference to other related thread:
    https://omegaforums.net/threads/universal-geneve-compur-30-rlm-nav.57873/
     
    Edited Nov 16, 2023
    marco, martinc, nitediver and 3 others like this.
  2. Fallout Boy Nov 16, 2023

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    Hm..... What was the asking-price? The case looks "unreal" sharp..
     
    marco likes this.
  3. Mark020 not the sharpest pencil in the ΩF drawer Nov 16, 2023

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    Quick look in my dial archive shows that - at first glance - the black 22409's I know of have 'complete' 8's on the dial. However they are 800k's. I know of a black 700k but that has a redial and the numbers are a different font (but the font used is also a bit off). See: https://www.thewatchboutique.com/en/product/universal-geneve-uni-compax/. I've never seen such pushers on a UG. Anyway: wonderful engravings but I'm not convinced

    upload_2023-11-16_20-51-36.png
    upload_2023-11-16_20-54-20.png
     
  4. Redondo444 Nov 16, 2023

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    Not stated - price on request but I assume according to the conversation I had for sure 5 digit with high 1 or 2 or even 3 as first number
     
  5. Fallout Boy Nov 16, 2023

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    at the end? :D
     
  6. Redondo444 Nov 16, 2023

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    No time for rephrasing ;)
    Assume between 15-25k
     
  7. Redondo444 Nov 16, 2023

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    Could be a welcome gift?

    Looks like Hartmann joined JG52 in October 1942.
    He got his nickname "Bubi" which is engraved in the watch also around that time due to his very young appearance.
    So he looked quite young and in 1942 he was also only 20 years old.


    So I could most likely rule out a welcome gift to JG52 after pilot education as he got his name only after he joined JG52.


    Maybe the watch was a gift given to him on one of the decorations he received - those were multiple:

    Front Flying Clasp of the Luftwaffe in Gold with Pennant "1300"[56]
    Pilot/Observer Badge in Gold with Diamonds[56]
    Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe (13 September 1943)[56]
    German Cross in Gold on 17 October 1943 as Leutnant in the III./JG 52[57]
    Iron Cross (1939) 2nd and 1st class
    Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds
    Knight's Cross on 29 October 1943 as Leutnant and pilot in the 9./JG 52[58][Note 5]
    420th Oak Leaves on 2 March 1944 as Leutnant and Staffelführer of the 9./JG 52[59][60]
    75th Swords on 2 July 1944 as Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of the 9./JG 52[59][61]
    18th Diamonds on 25 August 1944 as Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of the 9./JG 52[59][62]
    Mentioned twice in the Wehrmachtbericht[56]
    Hartmann had kept the whereabouts of his Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross secret from his captors during his time as a prisoner of war, claiming that he had thrown it away. The hiding place was in a small stream. His comrade Hans "Assi" Hahn managed to hide the Knight's Cross in a double bottom cigar box and smuggled it back to Germany when he was released from captivity.[63]

    Copied from here:
    https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Erich_Hartmann


    Still strange a watch from around 1940 sits somewhere in the RLM for 4 years.

    Anything known for similar cases that soldiers/pilots received gifts for decorations or personalized "work" watches from the RLM/authorities (from UG) in the 3rd reich?
     
    cristos71 and Mark020 like this.
  8. SpeedyPhill Founder Of Aussie Cricket Blog Mark Waugh Universe Nov 17, 2023

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    ::popcorn::
     
  9. martinc Nov 19, 2023

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    My very humble opinion would be:
    - original case, serial is fine, caseback typical for these very early 22409s and 22410s
    - definitely not original pushers
    - dial OK, I have no reason not to believe it was born in this case, numbers might be relumed
    - as for the engraving I would say: “why not?” :)

    (Generally I think that a UG watch with a serial, let’s say, from 1939 was not sold immediately in 1939, for example I have a 723xxx serial watch with engraved dedication from 1941. Or take the Pierre Colstermann watch, which has a 1936 serial, but sale is documented in 1938. And I think this “gap” got larger with later serials)
     
    Edited Nov 19, 2023
    Larry S and Mark020 like this.
  10. martinc Nov 19, 2023

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    valjoux72 likes this.
  11. 10H10 Nov 22, 2023

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    I don't buy it, here are my first impressions:
    . Who would polish so hard a 'Historic' watch ?
    . Who does engrave his name inside the case other than a faker who in lack of available space outside, has to do it inside (Both the 'Shield' and name were necessary to attribute the watch to this particular pilot)
    . In the early 1940', to my knowledge, it was impossible to engrave such hard steel so precisely with the available tools at the time.
    . An engraving without any papers, letters, certified provenance or any hard evidence is just worthless, anyone can do it...
    . The Closterman watch was a special order, special dial and case with fixed bars, so they probably took a case made previously that wasn't sold for civilians. By the way, pilots used fixed bars cases, this one is just regular...
    I think that it is a poor condition Spillman, made almost worthless with this pathetic attempt to upgrade it, waiting for a patsy.
     
    Edited Nov 22, 2023
    Geezer and Redondo444 like this.
  12. martinc Nov 22, 2023

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    Did the standard RLM-nav issued 22409s have fixed bars?
    I have seen them with normal spring bars, standard 22409 cases (except for the marking on the case back).
     
  13. vujen Nov 22, 2023

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    Completely fake watch

    Those pushers... :(

    EDIT: to be more precise, of course it's a legit 22409 -first batch- Compur 30. But pushers are not original, as well as the military nuance