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2 black dial Pie Pan Constellations - and the question of authenticity

  1. MtV Jun 12, 2020

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    Hey everybody,

    a couple days ago I created a thread asking for the information provided in the Omega Extract of the Archives, as I am hunting for a black dial Pie Pan Constellation and planned on ordering the EotA for it, sort of as a final prove it’s legitimately an original black one. Unlikely, judging by the amount of redials available online... @ConElPueblo mentioned that, while the EotA wouldn’t do it, you guys were probably the safest test. So, if you’ll allow, here are 2 from the same seller I looked at today, both cal. 354.

    I apologize in advance as this is going to be a lengthy post with a couple of pictures. Hope that’s fine - the light was horrible but I hope they are good enough for you to work your magic. I’ll post the pictures and add my thoughts - really excited to hear what you’ll say, even though I am in fact sceptical...

    Number 1)

    7A73595D-E4CA-42A2-9706-B4F09427ED81.jpeg D9B08BCA-EE60-42E1-AC0B-CC232C8B25C4.jpeg 273DE9BC-DAA6-481B-A773-50A6A6AFEE18.jpeg F44EACAF-ED16-4200-ABD1-67F9BA0211CD.jpeg 5F5F8DF2-1542-482F-9A46-B8578C7FEA71.jpeg 8FD150BB-C3F3-4A65-A7AD-380AE37976DF.jpeg BAAF77C2-EDA8-4C72-ABFE-5B94671D2142.jpeg

    Positioning of the hands is a bit unfortunate here, I’ll add two more picture in a second. Bit of corrosion around the movement is probably not too uncommon, the dial itself looks very shiny - possibly too shiny. What puts me off is this:

    34534735-C277-4398-AB5A-04926EED3A7D.jpeg 58C0B949-636A-4172-9A88-F4BD12802846.jpeg

    The star underneath the Constellation is too close to the letters and it’s in a wonky position. That can’t be right?
    Also, the Omega logo on the top is not completely in the center of the line (which I’ve spotted on a few of them on Chrono). The “Omega” seems to have been applied in an angle, too.
    I might be crazy here looking at those details, but I don’t just want your verdict, I’d love to learn on the way.

    Number 2)

    D68A6E7A-1413-430B-9D82-1A42D81A0C11.jpeg F8C5DC30-C9A9-473B-B587-A5ED562FA843.jpeg 10E81EDB-B7AC-4902-AAF4-F9D7C9FD1AD4.jpeg EEBFE9A7-BF39-46CC-B6AA-7EC029F9A164.jpeg 1871C9E8-1E81-4DC7-BBAA-EDA902EB4905.jpeg

    Again, possibly a dial too good to be true? The differences are minute, I do like the extra line along the indices.
    My issue here is that the line of the cross doesn’t go through the Omega Automatic Chronometer etc. at the top - scrolling through pictures of other Pie Pans, the only two I could find that didn’t have the line all the way through those words were ones even I could identify as redials. And if I look closely at the Omega logo the bottom left part seems to have a sharper corner than the bottom right part, it’s not symmetrical.
    Last but not least: it has the same issue with the star underneath the “Constellation” which seems to close and at an angle.

    To highlight that, here a comparison:

    169C6AFD-029B-4747-927B-B63F1D0A9C39.jpeg 20BB466E-DCE3-4634-8883-55CB27034543.jpeg

    Alright. Hope I didn’t lose you on the way - I know it’s a long post. Thanks in advance for everything I might learn from these!
     
    WatchCor likes this.
  2. Edward53 Jun 12, 2020

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    2 is an obvious redial - discontinuous lines, totally wrong script and a "pie pan line" that doesn't belong. I don't much like the comparison one you posted either. The script on 1 is much better but there are some odd things going on with the minute markers and the position of the hands is unfortunate, to say the least. If the same seller is offering both as original, that's not great news for 1. ETA: both have been severely overpolished.
     
    WatchCor, DaveK, Gui13250 and 2 others like this.
  3. MtV Jun 12, 2020

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    Thanks @Edward53
    Didn’t know the “pie pan line” doesn’t exist originally, seen a couple of those so far, so that’s good to know. Seems like my gut feeling was right. And yes, agree what you say regarding the seller since they were both offered as original.

    Also, another detail: the “n” in Constellation is completely different in the 2 close-ups I posted for comparison.

    Guess the hunt continues...
     
  4. Shabbaz Jun 12, 2020

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    Both redials i would say. Second one clearly is refinished. First one crosshairs do not reach the markers at 9 and 3 and swiss made looks to go through the marker. Misaligned minute markers. For me a no go.
     
    20200612_230320.jpg
  5. TexOmega Jun 12, 2020

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    Also, the two straight "n" fonts came much, much later, circa 1970 give or take.

    Posted for future educational purposes 'cause that one is surely wrong on many points.
     
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  6. MtV Jun 12, 2020

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    Is the Omega logo sitting not perfectly in the middle always a sign? That’s something I’ve noticed on many of them. It’s just that fraction off but it’d drive me nuts even if it was original.
     
  7. TexOmega Jun 12, 2020

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    ^
    Sometimes it is just parallax.
     
  8. qazwsx1 Jun 12, 2020

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    I vote for redial on both watches.
     
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  9. Toishome Jun 12, 2020

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    This is why I stay away from black dials :eek: Its a minefield
     
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  10. harrymai86 Jun 12, 2020

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    I think the first thing when dealing with black dial is you should look for some flaws instead, black dial degrades so a few flaws here and there should indicate an original dial instead of a shining redial.
     
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  11. timecube Jun 12, 2020

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    You have posted some lovely black dials minefields FS though. ::love::
     
    Toishome likes this.
  12. killer67 Jun 12, 2020

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    Black dials are like your final dissertation on vintage watches. These are not prime examples
     
    noelekal and MtV like this.
  13. MtV Jun 13, 2020

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    This is exactly the kind of information that’s so valuable. I’ve been noting points like this (or that swiss Made didn’t appear above the indices until ~1970, Swiss Made T not until early 60s, etc) and it’s a great help to check those points of.

    Lovely comparison!
     
    connieseamaster likes this.
  14. TexOmega Jun 13, 2020

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    connieseamaster and MtV like this.
  15. MtV Jun 13, 2020

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    Quoted directly from one of the articles on this blog:

    “However, if newbies land in one of the more respected brand or vintage forums, they will encounter many generous people willing to share their knowledge.”

    I have nothing to add. :)
     
  16. TNTwatch Jun 13, 2020

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    Both are clear redial. First one is not even pie-pan, it's a dome dial.

    Too many bad things to tell in this picture: vertical vs horizontal line, irregular dots, rough, thick and smeared prints...

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Edward53 Jun 14, 2020

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    I was wondering where you got that picture from, then I looked back and realised I hadn't spotted it sandwiched in between the pictures of the second watch....::facepalm2:: The broken vertical line is of course the major tell here. It never ceases to surprise me how rediallers so often do a fairly convincing job on the text but fail to notice that all Constellations always have unbroken crosshair lines and they should do the same if they want their dial to look right.
     
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  18. MtV Jun 14, 2020

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    Yeah, sorry about that - so many pictures of 2 watches that, on the small phone screen, look basically identical, so that got mixed up.
     
  19. WatchCor Jun 14, 2020

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    A verdict has been reached but I would like to take a moment and commend OP on a textbook example of "How to ask for help in ΩF".

    Too often I read threads asking for help or "appraisal" with just a line or two and " How much is this worth?".

    Sry for the tangent, carry on.
     
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  20. Shabbaz Jun 14, 2020

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    Haha. +1