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1960s Geneve 565 (166.041)

rendo
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Yes, but try to make very small adjustments and give the movement some time until you see the new reading. Depending on your timegrapher settings, it should take around 10 seconds for it to calculate the new beat error.

Start by rotating the stud carrier either clockwise or counter-clockwise (pick one). If the beat error increases after the first adjustment, change your direction to the opposite of what you started with and keep going until you get as close as possible to zero. With experience, you can tell which way you should start adjusting it.

Ideally you want to measure beat error in different positions, but let's take one step at at time.
 
rendo
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Beat error looks a lot better, but that's still not a good timegrapher reading based on what I know. Could you show how you mounted movement to the timegrapher? Can you increase the sensitivity of the microphone using the up arrow on the timegrapher while it is measuring?

You may be having too much amplitude, which could cause overbanking and explain why you are not showing straight lines on the graph.
 
UNLucky
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Feel like I'm chasing my tail. Get beat error down, amplitude goes down, of it goes up but the dots look like a show storm. Ultimately, what happens if I get a good beat error and decent amplitude but the dots are not in a straight line? I'm making tiny adjustments so I don't lose it entirely, but I'm close. An hour already. 馃槀馃槶

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UNLucky
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Probably the most consistent I can get it right now. From here. Tiny tiny modifications. Open to ideas.

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UNLucky
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So. Freaking. Frustrating. So close! The tinkering continues tomorrow.

PXL_20240919_045250029.MP.jpg PXL_20240919_045931404.MP.jpg
 
rendo
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UNLucky UNLucky
Get beat error down, amplitude goes down
This is the opposite of what I would expect, but I'm sure there's an explanation that I can't come up with.

UNLucky UNLucky
what happens if I get a good beat error and decent amplitude but the dots are not in a straight line?
I think this means there's a problem that you have not yet solved. Also remember that you are using the timegrapher in one position, which is not how the watch will be worn in real world for most of the time.

UNLucky UNLucky
So. Freaking. Frustrating.
It's easy to get frustrated with this stuff. People spend years to become a watchmaker, and I'm sure even the good ones get challenged at times. It's hard to troubleshoot movement issues with no experience and knowledge of what went wrong. Sometimes you see one issue and fix that, but then realize that there are other ones. That's why close inspection of all parts is key, but finding issues with parts takes practice. Keep it going.
 
UNLucky
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After letting it run over night. I really feel like I'm getting close. Going to leave it as is, wind it down entirely, oil the pallet stones and escape wheel and come back. I feel like I'm so damn close. Thanks everyone! I'll keep this thread alive and post updates after work today. Got some reading to do about the positions for this testing, since I think there's 3 to 5 other positions.

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Archer
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UNLucky UNLucky
After letting it run over night. I really feel like I'm getting close. Going to leave it as is, wind it down entirely, oil the pallet stones and escape wheel and come back. I feel like I'm so damn close. Thanks everyone! I'll keep this thread alive and post updates after work today. Got some reading to do about the positions for this testing, since I think there's 3 to 5 other positions.

PXL_20240919_132921448.MP.jpg
Have you not already oiled the escapement? If not, you do that before you try to adjust the timing. Adjusting the timing is the last thing you do...

So when you move the regulating arm that speeds up and slows down the rate, does the beat error change? If so, the balance spring is not adjusted properly.

By the way, if this was easy everyone would do it...
 
UNLucky
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Archer Archer
Have you not already oiled the escapement? If not, you do that before you try to adjust the timing. Adjusting the timing is the last thing you do...

So when you move the regulating arm that speeds up and slows down the rate, does the beat error change? If so, the balance spring is not adjusted properly.

By the way, if this was easy everyone would do it...
I oiled everything but the forks on escape wheel, which I'm doing today. I got excited and went right to timing. 馃槀 I can verify today about the beat error and regulating arm, I didn't try to make that connection. I do know overall once I get a beat error set, MAJOR changes will adjust it, i.e., over tightening or under tightening the regulator arm. I'll confirm tonight after lube and verification of everything.
 
UNLucky
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Keeping at it. I removed (after wind down) the balance and pallet fork and ensured that the train ran smoothly. They did the wind then back wind a little bit when I manually turned them. Worked amazingly. So reinstall the pallet fork and balance and now, oh boy. This thing is running fast as hell! Going to let it run over night and tinker tomorrow. It's really running smooth now and I'm excited to get it tuned! I may need to find someone in San Diego that'll actually show me some ropes here because I'm reading and trying but ultimately shooting in the dark. In the Navy tuning a radio to an RF freq was easier than this!

PXL_20240923_043756182.jpg
 
UNLucky
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Ok. Confirmed that the balance spring was bent and what was giving me the difficulties I had in regulation. So, new balance spring. Swapped and that went well. Now, I can't get the damn thing to keep spinning. Video showing. I've uninstalled and reinstalled the balance and pallet fork verified everything fits. I'm almost out of ideas.
 
sheepdoll
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Typically the spring is matched thought the balance. The process is called vibrating. Really advanced stuff.

Many would tell you what you are doing is impossible or not worth the time and effort.

Omega did it with a specialized grading machine.

OmegaTron.png


I think they scratched the balance and used a laser to measure the frequency. I have been wondering if it would be possible to make a lesser version using modern electronics.

According to You Tube an LED can be used as a Single photon detector. Which is what a photomultiplyer tube was. Of course this gets into quantum weirdness, and runs the risk messing someone else's tangled photon experiment 馃樃

The old timers let the balance tap on the crystal of a well adjusted pocket watch. I have a specialized tool for this. Misplaced the photo and to lazy to look for it. Does not really work for modern high beat wristwatches as it was designed for pocket watches with big wristwatch sized balances.

Still think you should get some working movements, and learn how everything is when it is alll working.

Not that I take my own advice. I still have the 1/2 dozen or so 55x/56x movments, I am slowing finding parts for. And experimenting making parts with the fiber laser.
 
UNLucky
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Well I DID eventually get it to go, the balance spring and balance all working well. Now it's onto regulation. Again. I didn't know all that so thank you for the knowledge. This is crazy. I love it and hate it at the same time. I WILL get this watch working. 馃槀 I will wear it. If it's tomorrow or next year.
 
sheepdoll
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Glad someone else has the passion.

Here is a 'Today' shot of my bench. I just got more parts assortments this week, including another 'trashed' balance. Now seem to be short roller/jewels. Still have not done much with the forks.

IMG_4665.png


I made some movement holder so I can press on the sweep hands. Many of the movements are missing the automatic bridge. Should have one coming next week.

Making the missing calendar parts is producing mixed results. I am also still working on a dial printing machine. I think the laser can cut the dial blanks. If I was really clever I could get the laser to attach the dial feet.

Empty cases though seem to be in short supply. Missed the boat on the whole watchco thingy. Everything online is for the NH35 which I think is too small.
 
UNLucky
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So freaking close! This is a 552 movement I've had. I had to set the other one to the side. I'll make a new thread for this one. But wanted to give some update.

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