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176.007 & cal. 1040 Production Totals and the Speedmaster 125 Conspiracy Theory

dialstatic
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Ken G Ken G
(Slightly) off topic: love the new "bezel" feature on the 1040 site, Andy!

I second that. Thanks so much!

The four different blue 007 bezels were especially interesting to me, since mine is different still. It's glossy like three of yours, but perhaps darker (maybe even a hint of purple).

The most noticable differences are the size/position of the tachy text, and the position of the five minute markers relative to the numbers (mine has a square adjacent to the 'belly' of the 5 in 85, and a square adhacent to the middle of the 0 in 90 - neither of whic occur in any of your variants).

So many variants...no wonder I could never source one exactly like mine.

IMG_9212.JPG
 
Andy K
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dialstatic dialstatic
The most noticable differences are the size/position of the tachy text, and the position of the five minute markers relative to the numbers

The one that always jumps out to me is distance of the word "TACHYMETRE" from the inner edge of the bezel. That one is all over the place. 馃榿There are many, many such variations on dials and bezels. I've given up trying to document them all.
 
Ken G
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[Sorry to continue taking this off-topic馃槜 ]

dialstatic dialstatic
The four different blue 007 bezels were especially interesting to me, since mine is different still. It's glossy like three of yours, but perhaps darker (maybe even a hint of purple).

The blue bezel I had before changing to a white one was also close to purple in certain lights. It was shiny and I kind of felt this, along with the darker color, meant it didn't quite match the matte B dial. Definitely more suited to the satin A2 dial.

I thought the best thing to do was to go white. Here are a couple of shots showing the old one's "purpleness":

IMG_1356.JPG IMG_6472.JPG

(strange seeing those old hands again! I've quickly gotten used to the "correct" ones)
 
Screwbacks
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give me 12 months to learn all these things and get in to vibes guys. enjoying the read. 馃榾
 
Andy K
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Have you got this one Andy?

http://www.chrono24.co.uk/omega/speedmaster-125--id3071600.htm

Seen a few floating around with no serial on the bridge, but one on the rotor... which looks kinda 1040 rather than 1041 to my untrained eye...
Yes, 99% sure that one is a cal. 1040, unless both the bridge and the rotor are service parts. A true cal. 1041 bridge has a lot of text crammed onto it. In addition to the SN, the words "ADJUSTED FIVE 5 POSITIONS AND TEMPERATURE" are on there too. I have this one documented as a 1040in a 378.0801 case.
 
tyrantlizardrex
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I'm left thinking there are a good chunk of "125" watches built out of parts... seem to be a lot of very, very Factory fresh watches out there, particularly the ones without the letter/number on the case back.

Wonder is Alain and Petros could be persuaded to dig in the archives...
 
Andy K
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
I'm left thinking there are a good chunk of "125" watches built out of parts... seem to be a lot of very, very Factory fresh watches out there, particularly the ones without the letter/number on the case back.

Well, there are a few things going on...
First, there are people freshening up tired old 125s with service cases a la WatchCo. Most of the time those are still cal. 1041 movements, which should only be seen in a Speedmaster 125. There do seem to be a good chunk of these, but it's hard to tell what the % is.

Then there are folks putting a cal. 1040 in a Speedmaster 125 or a cal. 1041 in some other cal. 1040 reference. Most would suspect the former is happening more often because there are more 1040 movements out there and the idea would be to pass off the rebuilt 125 as genuine but it is really housing the more common non-chronometer movement.

However, of over 450 serials observed, the one from chrono24 is the only one I have showing a 1040 movement in a 125 case, while I've seen 4 cal. 1041 movements in cal. 1040 cases touted as being some rarity. At first that's surprising, but then when I think about it more it makes sense. If you were trying to pass off a 125 as genuine but it housed the wrong movement, you probably wouldn't include movement shots in your listing. On the flip side, if you have some otherwise common cal. 1040 watch but it has a chronometer movement, you might play that up as a rare specimen (remember, this is using eBay seller logic here). So there are probably more cal. 1040 Speedmaster 125s out there. A lot of sellers of these lately have not been showing movement pics, to my frustration....
 
dialstatic
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Have you got this one Andy?

http://www.chrono24.co.uk/omega/speedmaster-125--id3071600.htm

Seen a few floating around with no serial on the bridge, but one on the rotor... which looks kinda 1040 rather than 1041 to my untrained eye...

That one is sold by a relatively large vintage omega watch shop near where I live. I doubt he transplanted a movement himself. Could've been precious owner though. I could check it out at some point.

But my money is on a replaced bridge, and replacement rotor having subsequeny been engraved with the serial (so as not to 'lose' it) - which would explain why the serial is on the rotor at all, while not being in the position it would typically be in.
Edited:
 
tyrantlizardrex
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dialstatic dialstatic
That one is sold by a relatively large vintage omega watch shop near where I live. I doubt he transplanted a movement himself. Could've been precious owner though. I could check it out at some point.

He seems to move a lot of stock... I emailed him, and he's got 4 available!

Chrono24 seems to not reflect what he has for sale, he's got 6 ploprofs up, but has none left to sell... guess doing that dealer thing of keeping enquiries coming in. 馃槈
 
dialstatic
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
He seems to move a lot of stock... I emailed him, and he's got 4 available!

Chrono24 seems to not reflect what he has for sale, he's got 6 ploprofs up, but has none left to sell... guess doing that dealer thing of keeping enquiries coming in. 馃槈

I've noticed that, too. If you're ever interested in anything he's selling, I'd be willing to check it out for you in person. It's like a 20 minute drive for me.
 
dialstatic
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Since this seems to be the go-to thread for everything 1040 related and where the experts are gathered (in other words: a thread that @Andy K is watching ;-) I wanted to ask your opinions about the following Big Blue:

http://www.carsandwatches.com/2016/12/30/omega-seamaster-120-big-blue/

IMG_4472.JPG IMG_4473.JPG


I have a few concerns:

1. it looks good. Does it look too good? The bezel seems a little scratched, as does the case. Same goes for the lume: discolored but lightly and very even. Could be consistent with a very carefully worn watch, but also with one that has been fully restored with service parts a few years back.

2. the grey subdial. Never saw that on a Big Blue before. Could it be indicative of work having been done on this? Does it cast a shadow of doubt on the originality of the rest of it?

3. the movement number. 409XXXX is exceedingly high from what I see on Andy's website - more in line with a Speedy Mark IV than anything else. I also learned there that it was common practice for these movements to have been swapped out during service back in the day. Or is this whole thing a watcho-like Big Blue?
Edited:
 
Andy K
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dialstatic dialstatic
I have a few concerns:

1. it looks good. Does it look too good? The bezel seems a little scratched, as does the case. Same goes for the lume: discolored but lightly and very even. Could be consistent with a very carefully worn watch, but also with one that has been fully restored with service parts a few years back.

2. the grey subdial. Never saw that on a Big Blue before. Could it be indicative of work having been done on this? Does it cast a shadow of doubt on the originality of the rest of it?

3. the movement number. 409XXXX is exceedingly high from what I see on Andy's website - more in line with a Speedy Mark IV than anything else. I also learned there that it was common practice for these movements to have been swapped out during service back in the day. Or is this whole thing a watcho-like Big Blue?

1. I agree, it looks more like a watch that was fully restored rather than an untouched original. The scratches bother me less than the general "unused" look. I suppose it doesn't actually "bother" me other than this example is priced as if it were a mint all-original watch, which I suspect it is not.

2. The grey 24 hour disc is wrong - you're right for that to raise a red flag. If it were so well-preserved, why would the 24 hour disc have been replaced during a prior service?

3. The movement serial doesn't concern me so much. I need to update my site because I've since seen a few more serial numbers in the 40 million range.
40 million.JPG

I can't really draw any conclusions from those numbers. Yes it could be a swapped out movement, but I don't think the SN proves anything without ordering an extract.

The 40 million batch is a curious thing. My list, when sorted by serial number, leaps from 3829 all the way to 4032. I've yet to see a 1040 or 1041 with a 39 million serial. Omega liked to jump around - I've also seen no 33 million serials and only three 37 million serials.
 
dialstatic
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Since this seems to have become the go-to 1040 thread, I'd like to pick your collective brains regarding a Yachting I just found (...though not yet purchased).

The seller seems trustworthy (though certainly a dealer), and as he's Dutch, I could pick it up more or less locally. He claims to have the papers for a full service back in 2000 (which is where the incorrect box comes from). I've requested the serial number, better pics of the dial, and the movement. I guess we'll see if he can deliver these 馃榾

[EDIT] Just got an e-mail: no luck on better pics (still blurry) but the serial checks out (35601XXX). If nothing else, this one can be a data point in Andy's research (I can PM you the full serial if you want). Picture of the service receipt added. I think it says:

Full service
1. error diagnosis
2. fixing movement defects
3. cleaning movement/case
4. function test to manufacturer's standards
5. Regulating the movement - final test
- Hand replacement chrono
- Rusted parts
- Round crystal waterproofed
- Pushers replaced
- Testing waterproofing to some ISO standard

Other than the out-of-focus pictures, nothing really jumps out at me as being particularly worrisome. The hands maybe look too new, but if I read the receipt correctly, only the chrono hand has been replaced. Or am I missing something obvious here?

$_85 (1).JPG $_85 (2).JPG $_85 (3).JPG $_85 (4).JPG $_85 (5).JPG $_85.JPG $_85 (7).JPG $_85 (6).JPG
Edited:
 
Andy K
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dialstatic dialstatic
Since this seems to have become the go-to 1040 thread, I'd like to pick your collective brains regarding a Yachting I just found (...though not yet purchased).

The seller seems trustworthy (though certainly a dealer), and as he's Dutch, I could pick it up more or less locally. He claims to have the papers for a full service back in 2000 (which is where the incorrect box comes from). I've requested the serial number, better pics of the dial, and the movement. I guess we'll see if he can deliver these 馃榾

[EDIT] Just got an e-mail: no luck on better pics (still blurry) but the serial checks out (35601XXX). If nothing else, this one can be a data point in Andy's research (I can PM you the full serial if you want). Picture of the service receipt added. I think it says:

Full service
1. error diagnosis
2. fixing movement defects
3. cleaning movement/case
4. function test to manufacturer's standards
5. Regulating the movement - final test
- Hand replacement chrono
- Rusted parts
- Round crystal waterproofed
- Pushers replaced
- Testing waterproofing to some ISO standard

Other than the out-of-focus pictures, nothing really jumps out at me as being particularly worrisome. The hands maybe look too new, but if I read the receipt correctly, only the chrono hand has been replaced. Or am I missing something obvious here?

$_85 (1).JPG $_85 (2).JPG $_85 (3).JPG $_85 (4).JPG $_85 (5).JPG $_85.JPG $_85 (7).JPG $_85 (6).JPG

Looks correct to me, though I have the same concerns about the hands, they look far too clean and those pictures don't help. And I'm always in the market for full serial numbers!
 
Andy K
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The other day I came across a Speedmaster 125 on eBay with an interesting Extract produced earlier this month. It seems they have removed the reference to 2,000 from the "Remarks" section. Here's a side-by-side shot, on the left is the extract for my 125, printed in February 2016, and on the right is the eBay Extract from August 2017:
side by side.JPG



I made a post about this on my site yesterday. I made much more detailed post back in May laying out all the unanswered questions surrounding the Speedmaster 125. I wonder if this change in wording on the Extract is a signal that Omega might shed more light on these watches in the near future?
 
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omegastar
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Note that the serial of this 125 starts with 36.xxx.xxx., so it is not part of the early batch starting with 35 million.
It would be interesting to see what they write now for a 35 million serial 125, maybe they read your posts !
Kind regards.
Mounir
 
uwsearch
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I got the same "no 2000" for my extract I ordered last may. 38M movement though.
 
Andy K
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omegastar omegastar
It would be interesting to see what they write now for a 35 million serial 125
Yes especially now that we know of this:
uwsearch uwsearch
I got the same "no 2000" for my extract I ordered last may. 38M movement though.

So did Omega change their wording last spring after I ordered mine and before @uwsearch ordered his, OR do they consider early Speedmaster 125s to be part of a limited edition of 2,000 and the later ones commemorative but not limited? Hmmm....
 
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