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  1. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 20, 2013

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    2h55hyo.jpg $T2eC16NHJIYE9qUcM8PIBRbP0vo9Vg~~60_12.jpg HI CHAPS I AM NEW HEIR , HI HAVE READING A LOT OF YOU TREADS HEIR AND ON WATCHUSEEK FOR A YEAR OR TWO NOW GREAT STUFF
    MY QUESTION IS IS THEIR A DIFFERENCE IN SOME OF THE VERY EARLY A386, I HAVE SPOTTED THAT THE VERY EARLY A386 538DXXX TO 589DXXX HAVE A DIFFERENT ZENITH CHRONOGRAPH AUTOMATIC EL PRIMERO ALIGNMENT ON THE DIAL THAN THE JUST LATER BATCH 706DXXX AND SO ON , THE ARE ALL ORIGINAL EARLY DIALS AND NOT THE NEW SERVICE DIALS BUT I WONDER IF THEIR ARE SERVICE DIALS PUT ON BY ZENITH LETS SAY IN THE LATE 70s/ 80s AS YOU CAN SEE THEIR IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE ALIGNMENT OF THE FONT, $T2eC16NHJIYE9qUcM8PIBRbP0vo9Vg~~60_12.jpg 2h55hyo.jpg
     
  2. cicindela

    cicindela Steve @ ΩF Staff Member Apr 20, 2013

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    Welcome BG, glad to have another Zenophile here ;) . Please do not use all CAPITALs though as it is like you are yelling at us.
    Please post some more images of your watches.
     
  3. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 20, 2013

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    imm2tz.jpg dial-800.jpg Zenith-A368-El-Primero-Print-Closeup-e1354737279674.jpg Oh yes i see what you mean cicindela, here are pictures of some a386 I picked up on the web as you can see their is a different alignment of the font on the dials, did zenith change the font early on in the production of the a386 what do you chaps think.
     
  4. LouS

    LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Apr 21, 2013

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    I've wondered about this in the past - now you've given me the impetus to go look at the database, BGBG. Let's call the first variant the "HA" dial, as the H in CHRONOGRAPH and the A in AUTOMATIC are vertically aligned, and the second the AI dial, for the vertical alignment between those two letters in the same words. Here are the results (sorry for the mess, the column justification does not carry over into the post):


    First Series (538-539D): 6 HA 0 AI
    Second series (706-708D): 5 HA 3 AI
    Third series (861-862D): 1 HA 4 AI
    Fourth series (922-923D): 6 HA 2 AI
    Fifth series (230-233E): 0 HA 4 AI
    TOTAL 18 HA 13 AI

    The data is not clean (as is often the case with data), but I think the two dials represent separate production runs, of which the HA is the first. The raw numbers argue against replacement or service dials, as one would not expect more than half the dials to be replaced. Further, one would expect the earlier watches to be more likely to have had the dials replaced because of wear and tear, and this is not the case.

    Incidentally, Zenith does not make its own dials, and probably did not order any change - the difference is more likely an artefact of two different printing dies at the contractor's.
     
    barbecoa and luzer like this.
  5. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 21, 2013

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    Thank you lous i have to agree with your conclusions and also too from what i have see that the early a386 938 to 939dxxx have the first early printed so called HA dials and that the AI dials are not service dials but are the second batch in the printing 706 -708dxxx your are on the ball as usual nice one lous.
     
  6. LouS

    LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Apr 21, 2013

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    BGBG, the 938 to 939Dxxx aren't xxx - they all end in '460' and are known to be modern forgeries. See this thread http://omegaforums.net/threads/of-a-386-casebacks-and-forgeries.3651/
    They generally DO sport modern service dials, with many more differences from the original than simple letter alignment.
     
  7. MMMD

    MMMD unaffiliated curmudgeonly absurdist & polyologist Apr 21, 2013

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    Very nice observation about the script alignment on these dials, BCBG. I had to look carefully to understand what you meant, and now I'm ashamed that I never noticed it myself.
     
  8. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 21, 2013

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    LOUS do you mean that case numbers from 938 to 939 are all forgeries
     
  9. John Chris

    John Chris Il Duca de Luca Apr 21, 2013

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    I had noticed some difference, but hadn't identified it as BCBG and LouS have done. What I noticed was that on some, the "El Primero" had less space between the sub-dials and the letters - now I see that this occurs with the 'unaligned' H and A.
     
  10. LouS

    LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Apr 21, 2013

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    Yes, have a look at the thread I linked to. There are only two watches in that range, 938D460 and 939D460.

    Have you photodocumentation of those watches? - they are not yet in my database.
     
  11. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 21, 2013

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    MISTAKE MADE BY ME I WAS MENT TO RIGHT 538-539DXX NOT 938D460 AND 939D460 in my first reply to you, yes i have seen the evidence
    abought the 460 and might i say dam good work to you and all .
     
  12. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 21, 2013

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    MMMD I HAVE BEEN SCRATCHING MY HEAD ON THIS ONE FOR A WHILE NOW THATS WHY I SIGNED UP HERE TO SEE WHAT YOU CHAPS THOUGHT ABOUT THE SO CALL HA AND AI DIALS .
     
  13. BGBG

    BGBG Apr 21, 2013

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    Did you chaps notice that that the word zenith in the HA dial is smaller and shorter and lies on top of the letter P in the word CHRONOGRAPH, and in the AI dial the word zenith is bigger and longer and lies on top of the H in the word CHRONOGRAPH .