Wonderful 33.3 at Shucktheoyster

[Mark020]

@watchyouwant: apologies I thought by last you meant a past auction.

Obviously a lot of differences.

I did some research in AJTT and created some side by side pics. Left is AJTT, right is mine. Pic used for the right index is before the plexi was polished.

 

[jumpingsecond]

This thread leaves me confused more than anything. The prices here are insane for redialed watches if that is the case.
Did Omega source dials for this ref from different manufacturers?
Are all of the examples like OP's redials? Seems farfetched that at some point all of them went to the same redialer and then were brought into the market.. it could happen - anything can happen- but just seems less likely.

The blue 360 on the tachymeter for each of them looks similar to me with the 6 kissing the 0. Just seems like they are all so similar that they are either all legit or all redials.
Will be watching here intently if any experts can shed more light. I know it's difficult without holding watch in hand.

 

[izydor]

I wouldn't spot the difference. All dials posted here look ok to me... Luckily I'm not in the market for one of these. 😀

Mark020

Now the intruiging things. My one has a serial <10 digits of Shuck's one. When I tried to obtain an extract Omega stated that they could not issue one and returned my money or actually EUR 10 less than I paid that is.....

Anyone who can explain to me how this could happen?

Did you include case number when you asked for extract? If you did, maybe try again with just a movement #. That worked for me with another 33.3 (serial +1000 though).

 

[Mark020]

Difference in case number is difference in movement number...

 

[watchyouwant]

jumpingsecond

This thread leaves me confused more than anything. The prices here are insane for redialed watches if that is the case.
Did Omega source dials for this ref from different manufacturers?
Are all of the examples like OP's redials? Seems farfetched that at some point all of them went to the same redialer and then were brought into the market.. it could happen - anything can happen- but just seems less likely.

The blue 360 on the tachymeter for each of them looks similar to me with the 6 kissing the 0. Just seems like they are all so similar that they are either all legit or all redials.
Will be watching here intently if any experts can shed more light. I know it's difficult.

There will be no answers. Only informed assumptions. In the original thread by the OP a few weeks ago and here now , we talk about 2 watches. Always the same examples described to confirm each other. With pictures from mark and a dealer. Now another dealer sold one. All these watches are in Europe, not all over the planet. That narrows down the options. I've seen these shiny dials at the biggest watchfair in Europe in the mid 90's. The Munich watchfair with attendance from 120 dealers from everywhere. And collectors from everywhere. 2 day events. Every attendee had somehow too short sleeves......parading everything around. So you know what's out there. At this time, there were 3 good redialers in Europe. Mr. Soni from London. Bethge from Germany. And Causemann senior from Germany. This shiny work and font used here is Causemann's work, in my opinion. 2 of the big international vintage dealers , who used Causemann, told me so. But this is only my informed assumption. Kind regards. Achim

 

[jumpingsecond]

watchyouwant

There will be no answers. Only informed assumptions. In the original thread by the OP a few weeks ago and here now , we talk about 2 watches. Always the same examples described to confirm each other. With pictures from mark and a dealer. Now another dealer sold one. All these watches are in Europe, not all over the planet. That narrows down the options. I've seen these shiny dials at the biggest watchfair in Europe in the mid 90's. The Munich watchfair with attendance from 120 dealers from everywhere. And collectors from everywhere. 2 day events. Every attendee had somehow too short sleeves......parading everything around. So you know what's out there. At this time, there were 3 good redialers in Europe. Mr. Soni from London. Bethge from Germany. And Causemann senior from Germany. This shiny work and font used here is Causemann's work, in my opinion. 2 of the big international vintage dealers , who used Causemann, told me so. But this is only my informed assumption. Kind regards. Achim

Very interesting piece of historical intel, thanks for the explanation to your views, Achim.

 

[MSNWatch]

When I started on this hobby in 2008 I did come across a few of these 33.3s with these so-called Munich dials and even owned one briefly back then. Quality ranged from ok to very good. I think it was the same period when the nicely done Rg dials were also circulating. Regarding the dial(s) under discussion I will say that AJTT has many redialled watches pictured so would not use that as the gold standard.

Edited: Jun 23, 2020

 

[wouter van wijk]

and don't forget this one at this weekend's sale at Antiquorum https://catalog.antiquorum.swiss/en/lots/omega-lot-329-225?page=1&q=omega

 

[wouter van wijk]

Interesting read about a reference I really like!!
Some thoughts here.
I tend to only state terms as NOS or like NOS when I know and am very much confident. Unfortunately some might use this dealer lingo too often. It's actually not dealer lingo since its used by many in our watch community. The whole problem with NOS is that it is that's it is a term that is used too often and can be interpreted by some people in a different way. We should have a look at coin collectors or gem traders (I think @Spacefruit can chime in on this) for instance. They have strict rules on condition. Check this for instance this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_grading and start understanding what FDC (Fleur de Coin) means. Coin traders have different kind of grading for unused coins. For this reason I only use "LIKE NOS" since our little community does not make a difference and the whole term "NOS" is very vulnerable for debate.
For a long time there have been another debate about fonts used on dials of watches that came out of the factory or were used while restoring. Let's not forget that many brands used different dial ateliers or suppliers. Manufacturers and dial suppliers also tend to change some kind of style. These dials were hand painted by humans. Different people, different style and quality. It's really nice with cloisonné dials for instance one can recognize the style of a kind of dial artist. Other example, Rolex for instance used pads for etching of bezels that use to wear out, therefore you have a fat font bezel ..So collectors or scholars.... invented MK 0 up to infinity.... ?
Sometimes re-dials are soo obvious with the most sloppy kind of repainting, such as the use of closed fonts instead of open, the use of pointed fours and flat fours, use of different styles of fonts (serif non serif) etc, but there are also restorers who tend to bring a dial back to life even better looking than new condition.
According to my personal opinion this whole discussion can go also sometimes a little bit out of control. I have handled the most beautiful dialed watches that were obviously repainted or had a new factory dial but still looked gorgeous. Should we spit on these or leave these ones aside? When I talk to my older watchmakers they say they often used to switch dials or send these worn or damaged dials (perhaps even during their own service...) to a painter since that was common practice due to consumer demand. Of course we all want the most original condition for a piece. But for heaven's sake these watches are consumables, which were produced with a purpose and in this case of the OP even 80 years old which are not water proof.
Little side note, when you look at paintings its happens that a restorer chose to reveal some pieces of a painting that have been hidden for years. This happened recently with restorations of Rembrand and Vermeer for instance. It is actually really interesting that Phillips is pushing the envelope by putting at auction even some restored watches. And this will happen way more often, mark my words.
Please note that the one mentioned by @Vitezi from Phillips is a different dial with a pulsations scale.

 

[jumpingsecond]

Beauty is in the eye of the restorer..

 

[Tony C.]

wouter van wijk

The whole problem with NOS is that it is that's it is a term that is used too often and can be interpreted by some people in a different way. We should have a look at coin collectors or gem traders (I think @Spacefruit can chime in on this) for instance. They have strict rules on condition.

This seems tangential to me. We are debating originality on this thread, rather than condition. But there is no doubt that vintage watch dealers and private sellers often distort what should be much more rigid standards for condition. No watch, to use just one example, should be ever be represented to be overall in "excellent" condition, with many and/or deep scratches on the case back.

wouter van wijk

For a long time there have been another debate about fonts used on dials of watches that came out of the factory or were used while restoring. Let's not forget that many brands used different dial ateliers or suppliers.

I think that most contributors are well aware of that, but given the status of the manufacturer of the watch, there should not have been great variance in the quality of the dials. Could Omega's QC have allowed outer scale numerals as crude as the ones posted in the OP to be used in production watches? I rather doubt it.

wouter van wijk

According to my personal opinion this whole discussion can go also sometimes a little bit out of control. I have handled the most beautiful dialed watches that were obviously repainted or had a new factory dial but still looked gorgeous. Should we spit on these or leave these ones aside?

Yes, we should divide redials, factory replacements, and originals, and for what should be obvious reasons. Collectors are pedantic, and while no one is suggesting that there is anything wrong with, for example, preferring a pristine and high-class redial to a patinated original, the distinction is obviously important. The distinction between a factory replacement and original is less important, but in terms of value at least, still meaningful.

It is true, as you suggested in your post above, that the vintage watch market is not the same as some others. Vintage cars, for example, are often sold with replacement parts or re-paints with little if any decrease in value. But the market is what it is, as they say, and the vast majority of watch collectors value originality highly, and are not willing to spend nearly as much on re-dials, no matter how fine they may be.

wouter van wijk

But for heaven's sake these watches are consumables, which were produced with a purpose and in this case of the OP even 80 years old which are not water proof.

Yes, but no one is suggesting that pervious owners were somehow stupid to have had dials replaced or re-painted. The salient questions are whether dials are original, re-painted, or factory replacements, which is precisely what is being discussed on this thread.

 

[wouter van wijk]

@Tony C. agree on most of your commenting. The reason that I commented on this thread is that I personally think the originality/condition debate might cause some people to loose the fun a bit of appreciating some restored and even original vintage watches. Some of the Rolex collectors for instance are so keen on details that its gone a bit too far if you ask me.
Another example: I often get this questions about polished and unpolished also from people who really don't know to tell the difference themselves. So they ask questions because they hear they are supposed to ask these questions. Some watches could be polished or not. It can also get polished a bit by daily wear. We talk about microns of material that can be removed. And we talk about materials that can be later added with modern technology. Btw it is even harder to find a really good polisher than a really good watchmaker. This collecting demand for originality also causes certain dealers to deliver supply. So you tend to get more made up stories and frankenwatches.
Other thing that worries me a bit is that ome might not wear their piece due to their fear of damaging a piece. These watches are meant to be worn not to sit in a vault as safe queen.
The OPs question is about originality so let's focus on that. I think the issue with originality goes side by side with honesty. As long as you state everything with the knowledge that you have and stay true to yourself you are righteous. I treat my customers who I would like to be treated. I think there is a lot of BS to spice up a sale. I also think the vintage watch collecting community is still a bit in an earlier state of its collecting maturity life cycle compared to art or even cars.
Some of the repainting can be done like 50 or even 75 years ago which is really, but really difficult to notice. Some can only be seen by niche experts who only vet a particular kind of watch brand of watches from a particular era. In the art world they use different technologies to tell the difference by looking at the substance of paint etc and röntgen for detecting old paint layers. This is possible since that's quite obvious since the techniques and styles are soo different. I also used to collect vintage racing bikes and some of these bikes for instance used techniques from a begone era by old almost retired frame builders working in their small private owned workshops.
Watch collectors are now quite fed up with BS and perhaps the vetting should improve in our collecting community. Therefore I added the comparison with the vetting from other collecting categories. Cars are really obvious, but indeed there is a different kind of attitude since cars are used and abused in everyday use since they are not precious luxury items but used for day to day transportation or weekend fun or competion. High end collectible cars were often tweeked for races etc or improved during their racing career. So I think we should look more at coins or gems since they are better comparable. Coins are also used on day to day basis but they are also made especially for collectors. What I like about car collectors is that they stil enjoy restored items, whereas some watch collectors turn their heads like a snob

 

[Tony C.]

Thanks for your thoughtful contributions.

wouter van wijk

I often get this questions about polished and unpolished also from people who really don't know to tell the difference themselves. So they ask questions because they hear they are supposed to ask these questions. Some watches could be polished or not. It can also get polished a bit by daily wear.

Sure, most collectors follow the crowd, and not only with vintage watches. How many art collectors can tell whether a layer of varnish should be removed and replaced, or that it 'colors' a painting in such a way that they may not like the result of an application of a new, and more transparent version? Etc. But I think it important to distinguish between fashion and technical details like the ones that we are discussing. Pining after something because it is widely considered to be attractive and/or cool is very different from appreciating technical details on which to make collecting judgments. For example, I can construct a much stronger objective criticism of the choice to pay three or four times as much for a vintage Polerouter than a Certina DS, than the choice to insist on an unpolished case or original dial.

wouter van wijk

This collecting demand for originality also causes certain dealers to deliver supply. So you tend to get more made up stories and frankenwatches.

Yes, and art (or book, etc.) forgery wouldn't exist without high values and demand, either, but noting that doesn't shed any light on the topic at hand. The demand was originally organic, not created by dealers, though they can certainly amplify the message. They can also distort it (Calatrava!).

wouter van wijk

Other thing that worries me a bit is that ome might not wear their piece due to their fear of damaging a piece. These watches are meant to be worn not to sit in a vault as safe queen.

Well, that's subjective. I happen to agree that vintage watches should generally be worn, but as long as vintage cars with absurdly low miles and mint/NOS watches command very high prices, it cannot reasonably be argued that they should necessarily be used as intended.

wouter van wijk

The OPs question is about originality so let's focus on that. I think the issue with originality goes side by side with honesty. As long as you state everything with the knowledge that you have and stay true to yourself you are righteous. I treat my customers who I would like to be treated. I think there is a lot of BS to spice up a sale. I also think the vintage watch collecting community is still a bit in an earlier state of its collecting maturity life cycle compared to art or even cars.

I agree with all of this. But given that the emphasis on originality has been in place throughout these formative decades of vintage watch collecting, I expect that amongst the more serious collectors at least, it will remain for the foreseeable future.

As a final note, I admire collectors who are less pedantic and more open-minded than I! I walk away from watches that I like very much in some ways, but that have condition or originality issues that would continue to haunt me over time. Those who are able to ignore such details are, in many ways, at a great advantage.

 

[wouter van wijk]

Originality is the main objective no doubt. Don't we all love our virgins?
Recently handled a 71 speedmaster for a consigning collector. To me its really like new condition. It is a collector's kind of dream. I would not use it myself since it would mess up the condition. Funny thing is that this watch doesn't give me the vintage spark. Its soo nice but also too fresh or something. So taste is similar to opinions; everybody has one. The thing is, that makes our hobby also so nice, there are different kind of collectors with different kind of taste and collecting habits. For daily use I prefer an 8 instead of 10. I love to wear my watches and use them. Unfortunately with this usage sometimes unintentionally abuse goes hand in hand.

 

[mozartman]

wouter van wijk

Interesting read about a reference I really like!!
Some thoughts here.
I tend to only state terms as NOS or like NOS when I know and am very much confident. Unfortunately some might use this dealer lingo too often. It's actually not dealer lingo since its used by many in our watch community. The whole problem with NOS is that it is that's it is a term that is used too often and can be interpreted by some people in a different way. We should have a look at coin collectors or gem traders (I think @Spacefruit can chime in on this) for instance. They have strict rules on condition. Check this for instance this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_grading and start understanding what FDC (Fleur de Coin) means. Coin traders have different kind of grading for unused coins. For this reason I only use "LIKE NOS" since our little community does not make a difference and the whole term "NOS" is very vulnerable for debate.
For a long time there have been another debate about fonts used on dials of watches that came out of the factory or were used while restoring. Let's not forget that many brands used different dial ateliers or suppliers. Manufacturers and dial suppliers also tend to change some kind of style. These dials were hand painted by humans. Different people, different style and quality. It's really nice with cloisonné dials for instance one can recognize the style of a kind of dial artist. Other example, Rolex for instance used pads for etching of bezels that use to wear out, therefore you have a fat font bezel ..So collectors or scholars.... invented MK 0 up to infinity.... ?
Sometimes re-dials are soo obvious with the most sloppy kind of repainting, such as the use of closed fonts instead of open, the use of pointed fours and flat fours, use of different styles of fonts (serif non serif) etc, but there are also restorers who tend to bring a dial back to life even better looking than new condition.
According to my personal opinion this whole discussion can go also sometimes a little bit out of control. I have handled the most beautiful dialed watches that were obviously repainted or had a new factory dial but still looked gorgeous. Should we spit on these or leave these ones aside? When I talk to my older watchmakers they say they often used to switch dials or send these worn or damaged dials (perhaps even during their own service...) to a painter since that was common practice due to consumer demand. Of course we all want the most original condition for a piece. But for heaven's sake these watches are consumables, which were produced with a purpose and in this case of the OP even 80 years old which are not water proof.
Little side note, when you look at paintings its happens that a restorer chose to reveal some pieces of a painting that have been hidden for years. This happened recently with restorations of Rembrand and Vermeer for instance. It is actually really interesting that Phillips is pushing the envelope by putting at auction even some restored watches. And this will happen way more often, mark my words.
Please note that the one mentioned by @Vitezi from Phillips is a different dial with a pulsations scale.

Alas, the situation with evaluated the condition of watches is nothing like that with coins, at least modern coins. There is a numerical system for grading modern coins devised by the ANA (American Numismatic Association) and I believe a similar one commonly used in Europe, both based on a 1-70 numerical scale first devised by Herbert Sheldon. It's fairly simple. Basically, there are coins with varying degrees of wear and or other forms of damage, and "uncirculated" or "mint" coins with no visible wear. For "mint" examples, some are better or more sharply struck, and some are shinier or more lustrous, some show a slight effect of stacking or bagging in the mint or bank which isn't necessarily considered the same as wear from circulation but does affect value somewhat. Polishing or attempting to improve a coin in any way is the ultimate faux pas, even worse than refinishing a watch dial, and generally destroys most of the value. Any significant damage other than ordinary wear also generally destroys most value.

And that's pretty much it. There are other factors and complications but they come up only seldom. Coins were struck by hand before the early 19th century and were far more irregular, so there the situation is more complex and less clear cut. Watches, artworks and most other antiques have a wealth of condition variables that cannot be categorized so simply. And watches are serviced, and so are almost never in exactly the same condition as when they emerged from the factory. I'm afraid the issues raised in this thread and many others here can never be reduced to a strictly rational and objective grading scale. There will always be a considerable subjective aesthetic factors.

 

[watchyouwant]

Time to ban the term NoS in the sales section. Like other brand fora did. Kind regards. Achim