When to Service an 861 Speedmaster

Akendo · May 11, 2023

Hi all - dipping my toe back into the Forum after some time away - be gentle!

I have recently acquired a Speedmaster Professional from 1996 with calibre 861 (18 jewels). The previous owner said it was serviced around 10 years ago. Curious as to how it runs, I dropped onto eBay and picked up a Timegrapher (cue groans!).

I have attached timegrapher readings on full wind, and it's running fast as my own reference timing data points indicates over a week by approx 15s per day. I have found a spec online that suggests the watch can run +15s at full wind and +22s at 24hrs (if interpreting correctly). I have spoken to a few watch makers with comments - "leave it as is", "it's all over the place and needs a service", "it's running within manufacturers parameters, leave it". Given the rate appears to be the only thing that's potentially out, should I be worried?

Not wishing to spend unnecessarily on a service, and given this is not a regularly worn watch, looking for some sage advice from the forum. I appreciate an eBay timegrapher may not give great results, but correlate to observable data.

Thanks in advance.

YY77 · May 11, 2023

Here's advice from an Omega qualified watchmaker:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/sleuthing-with-a-timegrapher.128216/#post-1734306

Unknown Watchmaker · May 11, 2023

As I'm a qualified watchmaker here also. If the previous watch owner said to you that the last service was around 10 years ago, So, yes it definitely needs a service for the sake of preventing wear and tear furthermore, Every mechanical watch should be serviced between 3 to 5 years at the max. Once the lubricant starts to evaporate and leaves little to no trace of oil in the watch, the watch sill can run perfectly fine and keep a good time for a very long time like your telegrapher results, however, it no longer protects the watch from wear and tear and will eventually stop running because the part becomes so worn out,

(Like exactly what happens to this Omega 1020 that runs for years without lubricants and ends up almost not working anymore)
https://omegaforums.net/threads/with-photos-overhaul-omega-seamaster-1020.159029/

it would be too late for normal service, it may require overhaul service, which means some parts need to replace, which will cost you even more than normal service.

I worked on thousands of Omega and Rolexs now and the most common issue for the watch is when the owner not sent the watch to service when it's due and mostly is Rolex watches. They only send their watch when it stops running. which is a bad idea and you should never listen to people who so-called "watchmakers" leave it as it is. what they telling you is totally ignorant and I very much doubt they are proper watchmakers who show love and care for mechanical watches.

So if the previous owner told you that the last service was 10 years ago, then timegrapher results that you showed to us should be ignored completely and I strongly advise you not to wear your Omega watch, leave it until you are ready for proper service. These Omega caliber 861 are extremely basic chronograph movements for service, therefor should be no problem with service by a qualified Omega accredited and qualified watchmaker.

Mat

Akendo · May 11, 2023

Unknown Watchmaker
As I'm a qualified watchmaker here also. If the previous watch owner said to you that the last service was around 10 years ago, So, yes it definitely needs a service for the sake of preventing wear and tear furthermore, Every mechanical watch should be serviced between 3 to 5 years at the max. Once the lubricant starts to evaporate and leaves little to no trace of oil in the watch, the watch sill can run perfectly fine and keep a good time for a very long time like your telegrapher results, however, it no longer protects the watch from wear and tear and will eventually stop running because the part becomes so worn out,

(Like exactly what happens to this Omega 1020 that runs for years without lubricants and ends up almost not working anymore)
https://omegaforums.net/threads/with-photos-overhaul-omega-seamaster-1020.159029/

it would be too late for normal service, it may require overhaul service, which means some parts need to replace, which will cost you even more than normal service.

I worked on thousands of Omega and Rolexs now and the most common issue for the watch is when the owner not sent the watch to service when it's due and mostly is Rolex watches. They only send their watch when it stops running. which is a bad idea and you should never listen to people who so-called "watchmakers" leave it as it is. what they telling you is totally ignorant and I very much doubt they are proper watchmakers who show love and care for mechanical watches.

So if the previous owner told you that the last service was 10 years ago, then timegrapher results that you showed to us should be ignored completely and I strongly advise you not to wear your Omega watch, leave it until you are ready for proper service. These Omega caliber 861 are extremely basic chronograph movements for service, therefor should be no problem with service by a qualified Omega accredited and qualified watchmaker.

Mat

Thanks Mat

It's a looker, but doesn't get much wear. Not sure it's worth an £825 service from Omega, but was quoted around half that from a local watchmaker for a service without case refurb, which it doesn't need. I'll take your advice on not winding it, and give it some love in a few months.

Unknown Watchmaker · May 11, 2023

Akendo
Thanks Mat

It's a looker, but doesn't get much wear. Not sure it's worth an £825 service from Omega, but was quoted around half that from a local watchmaker for a service without case refurb, which it doesn't need. I'll take your advice on not winding it, and give it some love in a few months.

No worries. Going for Omega service is always expensive. I'm charged a lot less than that for full service because it's a simple chronograph movement to service.
Wish you all the best.

Cdnwatchmaker · May 11, 2023

To help out a bit also. I have seen first hand, watches that have been ok on timing results before a service and when taken apart, the mushroomed pivots were right there to be seen. So please, send them out for service, or my jacot tool and or horia tool will be busy.

Canuck · May 11, 2023

Two months ago, I serviced my Speedmaster (calibre 863). First service in the 32 years I have owned it. 😲 (I know!) But over the years I have owned it, it may have had about one year of use! (I have lots of watches.) I have worn it almost full time since I serviced it. I leave the chronograph running. Presently, it is running within 20 seconds (fast) per month. Very consistent rate. In all the years I have owned it, I haven’t worn it enough to form an opinion about the degree of accuracy to expect. But since I serviced it, I am impressed with its accuracy. I do not recommend mechanical watches that are in regular use, be serviced every 32 years! You’ll get as many answers to the question of service intervals as watchmakers you ask. But probably every five years, but no more than eight.

Archer · May 11, 2023

Akendo
Not wishing to spend unnecessarily on a service, and given this is not a regularly worn watch, looking for some sage advice from the forum.

Omega's recommended service intervals are 6-8 years, depending on how the watch is used. This appears to be lightly used.

If you plan to use Omega for the service, the pricing will be the same if there are zero worn parts, or if there are 30 worn parts. So if you are happy with the timekeeping, and don't intend to wear it a lot, there's no reason to rush off to get it serviced - you are not saving any money by doing so.

If you use a local watchmaker who charges extra for parts, yes it will cost a bit more if some parts wear out, but likely nothing really expensive.

The only caveat I would say is if you get this watch wet, intentionally or otherwise. What a standard service fee won't over is extensive water damage, so if there's a risk of water exposure I would at the very least get a pressure test done, or simply treat it as if it has zero water resistance.

Cheers, Al

Akendo · May 11, 2023

Archer
Omega's recommended service intervals are 6-8 years, depending on how the watch is used. This appears to be lightly used.

If you plan to use Omega for the service, the pricing will be the same if there are zero worn parts, or if there are 30 worn parts. So if you are happy with the timekeeping, and don't intend to wear it a lot, there's no reason to rush off to get it serviced - you are not saving any money by doing so.

If you use a local watchmaker who charges extra for parts, yes it will cost a bit more if some parts wear out, but likely nothing really expensive.

The only caveat I would say is if you get this watch wet, intentionally or otherwise. What a standard service fee won't over is extensive water damage, so if there's a risk of water exposure I would at the very least get a pressure test done, or simply treat it as if it has zero water resistance.

Cheers, Al

It was the clean movement that led me to think it could wait, which it will as it is very rarely worn. Definitely not a swimmer or even a pot washing watch. I have a Submariner for that!
Thanks for the insight.

Canuck · May 11, 2023

If there was visible “dirt” in a watch, it would likely quit, leaving little doubt that attention was needed! But only rarely is a watch cleaning required when there is dirt visible. The congealed old lubricant is what needs to be removed during cleaning. Dry bearings are not visible until the watch is stripped. Dry bearings can do a lot of damage to moving parts.

Unknown Watchmaker · May 11, 2023

Canuck
If there was visible “dirt” in a watch, it would likely quit, leaving little doubt that attention was needed! But only rarely is a watch cleaning required when there is dirt visible. T he congealed old lubricant is what needs to be removed during cleaning. Dry bearings are not visible until the watch is stripped. Dry bearings can do a lot of damage to moving parts.

Three to five years is what I recommend before synthetic oil evaporates because there is five to seven different kind of synthetic oil that are applied to the watch and they all evaporate at different time. one oil evaporates and the other oil won't evaporate in the next two years or so. so half of the parts are still protected from wear and tear, meanwhile, the other half of the parts are not protected from wear and tear.

As long as the watch gets serviced when it is due between 3 to 5 years, not overdue. The condition of the watch movement should last 100 years in my opinion. I do think 6 to 8 years is far too long despite the Omega recommendation of service timeline, by that time, synthetic oil will evaporate and leave residue or no residue in the jewel hole. Not only do I use my professional cleaning machine to clean the watch parts, but I also use my wood peg to clean all the jewel holes before goes into the cleaning machine. Natural oil would take a little longer to clean though.

Archer · May 11, 2023

Unknown Watchmaker
Three to five years is what I recommend before synthetic oil evaporates because there is five to seven different kind of synthetic oil that are applied to the watch and they all evaporate at different time. one oil evaporates and the other oil won't evaporate in the next two years or so. so half of the parts are still protected from wear and tear, meanwhile, the other half of the parts are not protected from wear and tear.

As long as the watch gets serviced when it is due between 3 to 5 years, not overdue. The condition of the watch movement should last 100 years in my opinion. I do think 6 to 8 years is far too long despite the Omega recommendation of service timeline, by that time, synthetic oil will evaporate and leave residue or no residue in the jewel hole. Not only do I use my professional cleaning machine to clean the watch parts, but I also use my wood peg to clean all the jewel holes before goes into the cleaning machine. Natural oil would take a little longer to clean though.

3 years for a service is serious overkill, and would be a complete waste of money. 5 years maybe, if the watch has been used daily with hard use. I would be inclined to recommend a shorter service interval with an automatic, than with a manual wind - the parts in the automatic winding work very hard, and are often the first to fail...

Burnishing isn't going to save this pivot...but a replacement is $18, so not a big deal...

I just finished servicing a 10 year old Speedmaster that had liquid oil in all the jewels, and no pivots were worn.

Cheers, Al

Foo2rama · May 11, 2023

Oh! I know the answer to this question!!!

Before it gets to a point that @Archer will make an example of your watch for going to long without a service!

Unknown Watchmaker · May 11, 2023

I agreed that automatic works are the first to fail because they are constantly in use and so is the balance staff too. Yes, it may be overkilled for three years but it's a great benefit for a watch for the sake to keep the watch parts in good condition but not so much for the cost of service, I can understand that. So I would definitely say five years at the maxed to make service cost worthwhile. As you posted a picture of red dust in the jewel, I assume that Epilame has gone bad, seen the better days, I see those on balance staff, cap jewel, and roller jewel. That will wear the metal material down faster. Epilmane is great stuff to use and help prevent oil spreading and stay in one place but can be catastrophic once it no longer serves it's purpose and turns fine gritty red powder and this is the perfect example of why I don't recommend waiting six to eight years for service in my opinion especially for watches or pocketwatches parts cannot be replaced due to obsolete and no longer available anymore, this is happening now and again and that's when I have to step in do as watchmaking to make the parts as a replacement.

Archer · May 11, 2023

Unknown Watchmaker
I agreed that automatic works are the first to fail because they are constantly in use and so is the balance staff too. Yes, it may be overkilled for three years but it's a great benefit for a watch for the sake to keep the watch parts in good condition but not so much for the cost of service, I can understand that. So I would definitely say five years at the maxed to make service cost worthwhile. As you posted a picture of red dust in the jewel, I assume that Epilame has gone bad, seen the better days, I see those on balance staff, cap jewel, and roller jewel. That will wear the metal material down faster. Epilmane is great stuff to use and help prevent oil spreading and stay in one place but can be catastrophic once it no longer serves it's purpose and turns fine gritty red powder and this is the perfect example of why I don't recommend waiting six to eight years for service in my opinion especially for watches or pocketwatches parts cannot be replaced due to obsolete and no longer available anymore, this is happening now and again and that's when I have to step in do as watchmaking to make the parts as a replacement.

As I’ve been saying here and elsewhere for many, many years, the answer to how often to service is, it depends.

The thing I make clear to people is that there is no one size fits all answer to the question of how often to service a watch. What makes perfect sense for one situation makes zero sense for a different situation. It depends on who you are using for servicing, what parts are available, and what those parts cost, etc.

So blanket rules of 3-5 years or whatever, are of little use in my view, at least for the interests of the watch owners...

Unknown Watchmaker · May 11, 2023

Archer
As I’ve been saying here and elsewhere for many, many years, the answer to how often to service is, it depends.

The thing I make clear to people is that there is no one size fits all answer to the question of how often to service a watch. What makes perfect sense for one situation makes zero sense for a different situation. It depends on who you are using for servicing, what parts are available, and what those parts cost, etc.

So blanket rules of 3-5 years or whatever, are of little use in my view, at least for the interests of the watch owners...

I agreed, and I know what you mean, I have been there and had a big discussion about this. I remember a massive full blown argument that I had on Watchuseek back in 2006 and 2007. Either bring the watch for service when it's due or bring the watch once it stops working. I always argue that you should bring the watch for service when it's due It was full Rolex fanboys at that time and sometimes they don't like what they have been told about the reality of the watch service and the damage that can cause, for some odd reason, they think that the rolex watch can run more than 30 years without service and it still be okay without any damage to it, little did they know. I have done more than thousands of Rolex watches in my career and the Rolex is the only watch I have come across mostly that always going to be at least one or two parts that have worn parts, obviously not every single Rolex watches but quite common for me.

Those were the good days, different times and different eras on watchuseek back then,

Mat

Aroxx · May 12, 2023

I think I’ve found a good gauge for when to service a watch. I’ve gone to the ChampSchool motorcycle school a couple of times and the guidance for when you should go to the brakes is “When you get nervous”. Too many variables to answer the question. So, when should you service your watch? When you get nervous. Of course it does require a bit of knowledge about when to get nervous. It’s not as immediate a threat as flying into turn 1 at 140mph. For OP, at 10 years you should be nervous about the wear and tear caused by running it without lubricants.

Archer · May 12, 2023

Aroxx
For OP, at 10 years you should be nervous about the wear and tear caused by running it without lubricants.

But that wear and tear, if it's actually happening, will not cost him one penny more when he sends the watch for servicing if he sends it to Omega.

This is why the hard and fast rules that are being stated/promoted in this thread, are not to the benefit of the watch owner, as much as they are to the watchmaker.

Aroxx · May 12, 2023

Archer
But that wear and tear, if it's actually happening, will not cost him one penny more when he sends the watch for servicing if he sends it to Omega.

This is why the hard and fast rules that are being stated/promoted in this thread, are not to the benefit of the watch owner, as much as they are to the watchmaker.

For sure, in which case one shouldn't be nervous about it. That was my point about "too many variables" for a hard and fast answer. Sending to Omega is a huge variable since they will replace parts built into the cost you can just run it into the ground if you choose.

Archer · May 12, 2023

Aroxx
For sure, in which case one shouldn't be nervous about it. That was my point about "too many variables" for a hard and fast answer. Sending to Omega is a huge variable since they will replace parts built into the cost you can just run it into the ground if you choose.

Even if the OP doesn't use Omega, wearing the watch now is unlikely to result in a service cost that is higher than Omega would charge.

The biggest issue in deciding how urgent it is to service a watch, is if the parts are readily available or not, and what they cost. For a vintage watch where parts are hard to find and very expensive, by all means be more conservative on the servicing - your goal in this instance should be to preserve the parts inside the watch.

The 861 in the OP's watch certainly doesn't fall into the category of a vintage watch where parts are hard to find and really expensive. Most of the parts you would need are the exact same as are used in the 1861, are not expensive, and will be available for a very long time.

When to Service an 861 Speedmaster

Akendo

YY77

Unknown Watchmaker

Akendo

Unknown Watchmaker

Cdnwatchmaker

Canuck

Archer

Akendo

Canuck

Unknown Watchmaker

Archer

Foo2rama

Unknown Watchmaker

Archer

Unknown Watchmaker

Aroxx

Archer

Aroxx

Archer

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