How many watches posted in the private sellers forum does it take for the seller to become a dealer?
I’ve noticed some members consistently selling in the private forum but at a rate I would consider unusual.
Are they just serial flippers, wannabe dealers or just straight up dealers?

 

Thanks Steve - then what are the criteria that will be applied from your side to decide?

 

How mutch posts do you need to sell something on this forum?

 

1) Go to sales forum
2) look at 'stickies' (you can't miss them, they are always the first threads)
3) read

 

This thread is useless without naming names.

*edit

We've a lot of new members and I hope they're not being taken advantage of. I've never sold a watch here but I'm one of the guys who sometimes chimes in with the "why buy from a dealer when a forum memeber will sell you a gem for less?"

 

As noted in the 5 other threads in the past 6 months there is a difference in the 2 forums and how they work which makes it harder to post multiple pieces at the same time in the private sellers forum. That being said due to how this forum works private sellers has higher visibility but has posting restrictions.

 

Yeah and how exactly do we get unnecessary drama your way?

 

Hey guys, I've been meaning to share my perspective along with other in this whole "seller vs dealer" debate that has been going one for quite some time. In the last couple of months I've been on the quite side as I try to not be a man of many words and let other more knowledgeable share their view. In this case I feel I can bring another (maybe useful) perspective to the table, so here it goes:

First of, I think it's healthy to speak and refer only to myself as each has it's own internal reasons for doing something. So drawing a line in the sand and having a strict rule of thumb for "above x sales threads" or "flipping a watch to make a profit" to label some as a dealer is in my own view something utopic. Also, I feel it's worth mentioning that I don't have a problem with dealers or nor do I agree with how sometimes the term "dealer" is used like a bad thing. Below are the 2 main reasons (there may be more but I'll try to focus only on these 2) on which I base my perspective:

1. for some having a collection of 5 watches is just enough, for others 50 watches is just enough. At an constant of renewing 20% of one's collection per year and assuming both guys stick to that annoying rule "one in, one out" (I've heard tales on how to adjust or workaround this rule when it comes to your significant other, not in my case as I'm a saint ), the first guys buys and sells 1 watch a year while the other guy sells 10 watches. So at first glance, the second guy may seem more as a constant seller/ dealer than the first where in fact it's the same behavior, just a larger collection. And since we're in a watch enthusiasts & collectors forum, I somehow have the feeling that guys or girls with at least 50 watches are not something as rare as a black swan - or I least don't see it as such a rare thing. So, in short, what can seem like a lot for one guy can seem like normal for another or even too little for a 3rd guy. YMMV and all that.

2. The o so ubiquitous "he's selling at a profit" vs the not so mention but so ever present "I want to get a good deal". Now, this one has several angles in my opinion and I'll try to address the ones I feel as most relevant to me:

2.a. this is an expensive hobby. Man, this is a very expensive and irrelevant (in terms of functionality) hobby. I'll be blunt: I don't need more than 1 watch, and from a function over form perspective, my smartphone can do a whole lot more than a mechanical watch. If I don't fancy a smartphone, than something like a GShock and another quartz/ HEQ/ Solar/ Kinetic watch can fit the bill way more better than a mechanical watch, in my case at least. But I try to be fair to myself and acknowledge I'm not here for function, or at least not only for that. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I may not be the only guy who saw a watch he longed for come up for sale at 9 PM which had a asking price significantly above the average market price. And by 9:30 PM in the same day struck a deal only out of that impulse "I NEED to have THIS NOW" knowingly paying more than that watch was worth (maybe), but doing so to scratch an itch. Need I mention that in those 2, 3 or maybe 4 days until I received the watch I was on my toes and thinking about it more than about any other recurring and more important things? Or that large, dumb and satisfying smile I had on my face when putting the watch on my wrist? What I'm trying to say here is that when I'm buying a watch I do a couple of things: I pro-actively research to know what I'm buying and at what price (I'll come back to that) and I'm knowingly pay for more than the intrinsic value of the watch, I pay for the feeling I get from enjoying that watch. You guys know what I'm talking about when you look over each tiny details, you wound it and keep it close to hear the movement, to glare at it in various angles to see the light on the dial and to notice all details, from wabi sabi to the craftsmanship and so on. These 2 aspects - research and the feeling receive after the purchase are strongly linked in my case and I would bet every enthusiast and collector go through something similar: a solid part of the fun is in the chase. Is in gathering knowledge, reading, asking questions, putting two and two together and so on so that one can better appreciate a watch.

2.b. I don't think it's a shame to buy a watch at a great price, nor is it a shame to buy it at a premium or even overpriced. The difference between these instances lies within the buyer - his level of knowledge (and how much he invests in it), his motivation for that purchase and where he is in terms of lifestage for a watch enthusiast. I'll elaborate on all 3 below:

2.b.I. I've often heard "I'm a noob, I don't want to be taken advantage of" and it's a fair statement. I don't think anybody does . In my experience, everybody was a noob at one point and almost every enthusiast or collector paid maybe a little more than he wanted for a watch when he thinks back about that purchase. But here we come back to 2.a the research part - if you don't want to buy a shitty watch or a overpriced one, do your homework. And by homework I'm not just saying to post a thread saying "how much is this worth" and call it a day. This is one way, but you'll lack the fun part from the chase I mentioned a couple of rows below. The better part in my view is to try and educate myself while keeping in mind that Rome wasn't build in a day. A little by little each day goes a long way in a couple of months. Before I bought my first automatic watch (which was a gift in fact but I got to decide upon the model) I spent like 2-3 months reading on my national forum and then expanding to wus. I started by taking one chapter of the forum at once and going through all the threads from it regardless if they were new or old (like no replies in 3-4 years time old). And I've read and reread and settled upon a model and changed my mind and read again to find another angle to settle upon another model and change my mind again. This went on and on and while it may seem like a tiresome process from the outside, I enjoyed the hell out of it. Even writing this down now several years after that moment it still brings back a joyful feeling. By the way, the watch in question is an Orient Mako blue which I haven't worn in like 4 or 5 years, but which still brings me joy just by looking at it. And speaking of it, I've remembered to service it, thanks OP for laying the context for me to remember this .

2.b.II. Motivation for the purchase can often be seen in posts like "is it worth it?" or more bluntly put it "is it a good investment?". Guys, at least in my case this is a hobby with 2 components - rational and irrational. If you're only for the rational part, I have bad news for you: only a couple of watches in the world are good investments, it's fairly hard if not impossible to accurately predict which ones are they and how much they will appreciate in value. To spot them and do an accurate assessment from an investment point of view, you need that pro-active research I keep on mentioning. And if you got through that time consuming (in a pleasant way, but still time consuming) research part and still ponder if it's a good investment or not, then I feel sorry for you as you may have missed the entire fun of the hobby which in my view is the mix between rational and irrational, heart and mind if you like. In my view, and I do try to keep a close eye on the rational part as I'm a working man, not a fellow born in riches, I feel that by sticking to the mantra "buy what you love to wear" I get a ton more satisfaction that if I were to focus on buying watches as investments. I'm here for the pleasure, for the enjoyment part. For the thrill, for the chase, for knowing and sharpening my thought process and for the dumb smile I get while looking at a cheap Orient Mako. Without the time spent on researching it, the Mako, my Mako would be something like another entry level blue dialed diver which is a shame.

2.b.III - lifestage of a watch enthusiast/ collector. One of largest collectors I knew (he passed away a couple of years ago, may he rest in peace) said something like "a collection has to be self-sustaining in order to be called a proper collection". Now, I view this hobby as a journey which is not the same for everybody - some are comfortable with 1 watch, some with 5 (ranging from dress to diver), some with 5 from the same area (all dress for example), some with 5 following some quite strict criteria (all iterations of a certain model sold between a certain period for example) and the examples are countless. Now, the fact of the matter is that the ones who dedicate more time to this hobby are the same guys which are more likely to buy at an attractive price. And this is simple and straightforward: they invested time and energy to accumulate the knowledge which allows them to spot gems and act quickly/ pull the trigger fast enough to get them. And the funny thing is that they did not invest this time and energy with the end goal of being able to spot gems in the rust, this is a side effect and valid in almost all hobbies, at least this is my take on the subject As I said I will only speak in my own name, using this logic I cannot go to a seller and say: hey, you bought this a x $ and you're selling it with 50% more. The reason is that it's his watch so I feel it's his own business how he chooses to price the watch. I don't know how much time he invested in it, how it quantifies the effort of buying it (I know of collectors who work as part time dealers by sourcing various watches for friends) or any other thing from his own pricing process.


To sum this long post up: I buy what I love to wear and not watches as investment. If somebody would ask me why, I would say because this is the fun of the game for me. When I'm a buyer, I look as a potential acquisition from both the rational perspective (as I feel it's my responsibility to do my homework), as well as from the irrational perspective (I feel it should bring a smile on my face) - these 2 are linked, yet irrational may trump over the rational perspective. But I choose to let this happen and the seller is not taking cash from my pocket.

If the seller makes a profit while selling it to me, good for him as I like deals in which both guys walk away happy. But each party is responsible for its own happiness - I'm responsible to buy what I would like or even love to wear at the price I feel comfortable with (please note that a comfortable price for the buyer may or may not be linked in any way to any market average value). And the seller is responsible to sell for a price he's comfortable with. Comfortable in his case may mean making 10% profit or 100% profit or taking a 40% loss and being happy he got the cash he needs for what he thinks it's more important to him. It's up to him to sell a watch at a price he's ok with and since I'm not going to pay more that what we agreed upon if he's taking a loss, why should I mind he's making a profit?

In a nutshell, I feel this is an educated hobby in which for me the fun of building knowledge and evolving is on par with the enjoyment of wearing the watch. I buy what I enjoy to wear and try to walk away happy from a new purchase. And if the other guy is also happy selling the watch to me, than that's a damn fine deal regardless if he's a self proclaimed dealer, an undercover dealer, a compulsive buyer/ seller / flipper, a collector who only sells 10% of his collection annually and has a large collection, a one time seller and so on.

My 2 cents on this subject .

 

I for one would like some guide lines to this. I have reported, what, four different members for selling on the Private Sales forum when they contributed with nearly nothing other than those posts. While I do not mind being told that for some reason there wouldn't be taken any action, I have never had any response either from the mods either. Only @Bill Sohne replied to me recently when I mentioned this in a different thread, but still no action.

I don't find that the offers on the Private Sales forum should be/are necessarily cheaper than those from dealers, I'd just like the distinction to be made so that we're clear on who's selling to who. And naturally that those dirty, rotten dealers stop pushing my own extremely well priced pieces to page two

 

And another thing...

Some time ago I started adding a clause that I would not accept any offers on watches I was selling coming from dealers. This was due to two (!) watches I sold at fairly friendly prices was sold to people who intended to move them on immediately. I only realised the identity of one of them due to the email name on the PP invoice (watchsales@.... or something) and in the other case it was pointed out to me that the watch I had just sold was now on sale from a dealer in New York, it even still carried the strap I sold it on. And had a 80% price increase.

Sorry, but I do not spend hours doing research and taking silly chances on eBay only for someone to swoop in a make a profit on my work. If I can sell or trade something at a favorable price to a fellow collector I will do so - and I believe that my selling history on OF shows just that. When resellers run rampant here, it only does one thing - cause price increases across the board in the sales section.

How about branding all dealers who join OF? Like adding some text underneath their avatar?

 

I had this conversation recently.

I'm a serial buyer of watches. My own collection is in excess of 100. I genuinely don't know haw far in excess. I've got a lot of watches. As a result, I sell a fair number of them. However, I rarely sell on OF. I asked a mod at what point I would be considered to be "dealing" in watches if I were to list a number on the site and the answer I got was "it depends".

Now, this was a face to face conversation at a GTG of collectors. One of the watches I brought to show was a Speedmaster II "full set". That full set included a 1971 black crater box. There was a surprised " do you know how much that's worth?" from the table and I said yes. I know exactly what these sell for and said I'd given consideration to selling the box to offset the purchase of the watch but couldn't bring myself to break the set just for a few (OK, many hundreds of) pounds. Someone else then said "that's what makes you a collector and not a dealer".

So, the point of this ramble: we're a community here. An ever growing one, but we are blessed with a good crew of Moderators. If you're worried about anything, take a moment and bring it to the attention of one of them. I can almost guarantee that they are already aware. Should anyone abuse the privileges that membership here affords, the moderators and the community as a whole will soon step in to police the situation.

 

The main reason I asked is surely a dealer must have a larger degree of come back if there’s a problem with his merchandise.

 

I know, right? I have the same issue when it comes to not buying more watches and enjoying the ones I already have .

 

post farming will be noticed though. and sanctioned eventually.

 

All the same... I read the whole post George! You make some valid points.