I've been thinking about watch restoration vs car restoration of late and would love to hear members' thoughts.

I have a Rolex Precision ref 6426 that was issued to the FAP that I bought at auction. There was undisclosed caseback damage I discovered on receipt of the watch (there's a thread in the Rolex sub-forum with the backstory) and I'm leaning towards sending the watch to LA Watchworks for restoration to the caseback to repair the damage while preserving the FAP inscription.

There is a lot of debate amongst the watch community about "restoring" watches - preserving originality is tantamount, and I'm on board with that line of thought.

However, for some reason the car collector world has evolved into a different place. Most high level concours events have classes for "barn find" cars - as original as possible - and also a class for restored cars. Both are widely accepted within that community.

Yet in the watch community, it seems like restoration is almost a dirty word. Is this, perhaps, due to the fact that most watch restorations we see on ebay, etc have been rather crudely done?

Perhaps as the new breed of restorers, like LA and ABC in California, and I'm sure others around the world, begin to proliferate, restorations will become more accepted by the community, especially if sympathetically performed.

Having researched watch restoration work, some of it is well enough done that I would imagine it would become difficult to tell a watch had been restored at all. Is this the future? Is this the likely direction the hobby goes as pristine examples are all bought up and become essentially impossible to find?

I think there is something beautiful about an unrestored, all original car (and watch). But I also admire sympathetically restored examples as well.

If we reach a point where we struggle to tell the difference, will it really matter?

What sayeth the forum?

 

Watch restoration is a new pursuit, which has come along as lots of money has been rotating into vintage watches of late and shows no signs of letting up so far. Which of course makes sense - when there's money to be made, skilled purveyors (and not-so-skilled; be careful) will pop up to offer their services.
Because it's a recent phenomenon, there's not much of a sample size to judge from, and consequently, restored watches are a rarity. They'll be viewed as less valuable than originals, for the time being, but it's important to remember that your vintage watch continues to age. While it might have an attractive patina at this particular point in its life, it'll continue to attract marks on the case and the lume will continue to degrade.
Now that restoration is much more sympathetic than the old "make it new" ideology still practiced by the watch companies, we're starting to see more acceptance in cases of relumes, which are no longer executed with stark white, brightly glowing Luminova but with non-luminous or partially-luminous pigments that resemble the patina the watch has already grown into.
Personally, as watches age further (towards 100yrs and beyond) and begin to succumb to faster degradation I think that restored watches will become a larger part of the market with more acceptance, with preserved examples still commanding a premium, of course. Same thing that's emerged in the vintage automobile market.

 

If you are referring to cases, that's not the future, it's the present. There is no claim I take with a larger grain of salt than "unpolished case" because there are people who are using laser welding to build up completely worn out cases, then refinishing them like new, and then distressing the case to make it looks like a case that was lightly used over time. It is a claim that was virtually impossible to prove even before the advent of this technology, and now I would say it really is impossible.

The next thing is lume - there are already enough people mixing lume to match old tritium (complete with old lume mixed in so UV light tests are inconclusive) that lume is always another question in my mind. There is a watch for sale in the sales forum that has been relumed this way.

I believe these things are more prevalent in the Rolex world right now than Omega, but Omega will be heading this way given the prices some watches command. For me personally in the Rolex world, unless you buy the watch directly from the owner (or from someone who has done so and that you really trust) it's a complete minefield. There are surely legitimate restorations done out there where everything is disclosed, but once the watch changes hands a couple of times, then you likely will have no idea what was done.

Cheers, Al

 

Ben tackled exactly this topic in an editorial on Hodinkee earlier this year that I thought was pretty interesting – even using the same comparison of car restoration. Worth the read.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/patek-philippe-reference-530-most-important-2017

 

I agree that an original, unrestored watch should command a premium in the market place. But I also believe that there should be a place for a thoughtfully restored piece. The biggest complaint that I notice in the threads is "that watch dial has been repainted." I just don't see the crime here for the well done redials. If I had a '67 Corvette with sun-baked paint and very worn seat covers, I would have no problem with the car being repainted and reupholstered. Already, we don't down grade a watch because it has a replacement leather strap. We all know that a leather strap won't last 50 years, or so. And, replacing a crystal is generally permisable. I have a difficult time understanding why dials and hands are that different. Just my $0.02.

Pax Vobiscum.

 

I wonder who is doing this (Hong Kong?) because I've asked around and no one seems to admit to being able to do this in California. Been told by two expert laser restorers(that charge $200 an hour) that the time involved to rebuild a case a fraction of a layer at a time would make it exceedingly cost prohibitive.
Maybe if you did it to a burned out big crown 6538 it would pay... but it doesn't seem like we're going to see this all too often.

 

I guess it depends how much material needs to be added, but I've seen LAWW restore Rolex cases for $1400 or so (in that instance it was a GMT Master). Not saying they are doing what I have described, only that the costs can be pretty reasonable.

But the geographical area I was referring to is where labour is quite a bit cheaper than California...

 

I couldn't agree more! Being a bit of Fr. Flanagan myself, I almost feel it's a duty to try and resurrect these old classics. If the alternative is to let them decay to the point of discard, it seems like a terrible waste. If the movement still has 50 years of life left in it, what's the harm in outfitting it with a masterfully executed new face?

 

Al, I figured you'd have a great take on this.

By the sounds of it, we're either not far away from not really knowing whether cases and lume are original, especially on high level pieces (gilt dial 1675s, 2915 Soeedmasters and the like) or we're already there. So, I guess the question is, if we can't tell, will it still matter whether cosmetic work has been done or not?

 

I would probably be happy with a perfect restoration as long as it was disclosed and priced accordingly. This would be better than not being able to get the watch at all.

 

But if it's a perfect restoration and not disclosed, would you be able to tell? If you can't tell, does it matter?

 

I have a friend in FL with a laser welder and posted a case he did for himself. After doing that, he was contacted by several resellers about doing cases for them, but they had histories of selling "original unpolished cases" so he would not do the work for them. He only repairs cases for personal watches brought into his shop by actual owners (locals and people he knows well through the forums).

 

The "priced accordingly" caveat is interesting. To the purists, the expertly redialed watch should sell at a discount to the pristine, drawer find. The reality, though, is that this is not realistic. The watch needs to be obtained as a barn find, gets sent out for a full service and then needs that new dial. All that labor is going to command about $500-$800, plus the underlying cost of the watch. A restored watch will necessarily be priced higher, but I still think there's a market out there for them! I can't be the only guy who's bought a couple! I just won't display them on OF!

 

Please do show them. There's a spectrum of opinions here, and having some concrete examples to further the discussion would be helpful.

Let's see 'em!

 

This thread has no pictures!

Let’s see an example: I am planning to have the lume on this watch restored. The hands have already been poorly relumed and the chapter ring has mold and looks ugly, I think a nicely done restoration will make it look a lot better.

I’m a little worried about the final result but in this case the good thing is that the lume is not on the dial so it’s easy to remove and do again if it doesn’t work out. The tricky part will be not making it look too good in contrast with the damaged dial (I’m not very good at finding poetic names for “patina” )

I’m not doing this to sell it, but I believe a good restoration won’t damage its value. I’ll be sure to share before/after pictures. What do you think? Would you prefer this to stay fully original?

 

Laser welding isn't hard to find if you really want it, here in the U.K at least. Watchworks in Bristol are renowned for it, Swiss Time Services can do it and any decently equipped jobbing jeweller may have the capability, though they are probably more practised on gold than steel.

 

Dibs!

This is absolutely gorgeous.

I'm not a purist by any stretch - but I'd be tempted to leave it as it is

 

Ofcourse that knowledgeable restoration is needed. Whatever "knowledgeable" people might say...

Examples:

Speedy 125 and bunch of Marks with Collins and Sapphire Sandwich...

 

Replacement dial from Omega at some point when the watch was serviced in 80s. Though I don't know what it looked like prior to the point this alteration occurred, it's hard to see this and think it wasn't the right decision at the time.