Hi all - I'd like to post verbatim aspects of a conversation I have had today.

First, from me to Harrogate Vintage Watches:


Hello,
I received a ‘Vintage ZENITH DEFY ESPADA plum Dial, 17j Automatic Watch-70's-serviced’ (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=201020683747) from you and as soon as I tried to set the date, the datewheel jammed half way between dates. I didn’t raise it with you but promptly sent it off to my watchmaker, as this raised certain questions about the quality of your watchmakers work.

He's worked his way through his queue and I've just received the following:

'Hi Stuart, I've started on your Zenith today. There are a couple of problems. The case ring isn't original, but comes from some other watch. The dial should have a spacer to keep it off the movement, but there is none, so the date ring gets stuck on the dial. I'm not sure the pendant tube belongs into the case - that's probably why we can't find a Zenith crown. Getting hold if the missing parts (case ring, dial spacer) won't be easy, as spare parts aren't readily available.' I’ve attached his photos showing some of the ‘work’ that has been done to get the watch to fit.

To be fair, he does note that the movement (which is not correct to this model - I knew this at purchase) is running well - but aside from that it is certainly not an 'Absolutely superb ZENITH DEFY ESPADA' but a cobbled together mishmash of case parts and movement from several watches - some of which don’t appear to be zenith – and is non-functional due to missing pieces. I would be very keen to understand your opinion of this watch, and wether the ‘modifications’ to the case took place as part of your ownership to enable you to sell a non-functional watch or were simply missed by your watchmaker and is not something you would like to have ‘Harrogate Vintage Watches’ associated with.

I’m awaiting a response from you – I am fully prepared to start with leaving negative feedback and raising a dispute with Ebay, but would like to give you a chance to make things right. I’ve noted that your only negative feedback this year is concerned with a non acceptance of returns; I’m hoping this situation is clearer on all sides than that one.

Stuart

There's been various backwards and forwards as he promised to talk to his watchmaker today. Tonight I have received this response:
Hello stuart, as previously mentioned in response to your emails today i have spoken with my watchsmith,previous owner if the watch and also ebay,these are the findings
1.watchsmith 'no other work was carried out other than servicing of the movement and replacing the broken crown for an aftermarket crown (detailed in the listing.)
2. Previous owner- only work performed in his 8 years ownership of the watch are two movement servicings.
3. Ebay have advised me that you are outside of the 30day refund policy,and that i am not bound or oblidged to issue a refund and have questioned why you didn't contact me earlier if there was a fault.
4. Ebay have advised me that 'dissmantling of the watch by a third party (another watchsmith) negates and nullifies any guarantee anyway.
Kind thanks.

- harrogatevintagewatches

I have replied with the following:

So to be very clear on this - you have sold me a watch described as superb in every respect and freshly serviced and despite it missing parts, having incorrect parts, not functioning correctly and having severe damage to the internal parts of the case that is clearly visible in the photos you have sent me, you feel no obligation to offer anything to make it right and in fact are hiding behind the fact that 30 days have passed while my watchmaker got to it?

It will be interesting to see what his response is, but I strongly suggest anyone googling this company or reading this post think long and hard about using this vendor. I'm also open to suggestions that might help me out.

 

Sorry you have an issue, however one of the first rules of eBay is don't take things into your own hands if you have a problem.

Why should the seller be responsible once you've dicked around with the watch?

I'm not trying to make excuses for any misdeeds, however, you logically voided any warranty offered by not giving the vendor the option of makings things right first.

 

I get the general point, but if I had sent it back to him to "repair" and he'd bodged it again and sent it back, I would be blissfully unaware that the missing/incorrect parts mean it would only be a matter of time until the date change broke again - how would that be better? He's sold a watch as correct and freshly serviced, and not disclosed any of the issues - how would I have known what was wrong unless I 'dicked around' with the watch? What happened to 'assume anyone who says an ebay watch ii's serviced is lying'?

The date change not working I'm ok with. The missing/incorrect/modified parts I'm not, and I would never have known that if I hadn't asked someone I trust to look at the watch.

I fully understanding there are problems with vintage watches. My issue with this one is it seems likely that he knew what the issues were with the watch all along, and now I've found them is not denying any of the issues (actually, hes denying the crown tube was changed even though you can see where the. case tube was ground down in the photos but the rest he is not arguing with). Despite knowing up front the watch was sold with issues, he's not going to do anything because its been.40 days since received it, not 30. If he think acceptable business practice is to sell a defective watch as freshly serviced (how many people are going to send one off to have it checked?) and then the second it hits 30 days say 'not my problem' I think people should know.

Seriously, am I being unreasonable here?

 

Thanks warren. I'm on it today!

 

I'm sort of 50/50 here. I think that taking it up with the seller rather than sorting oneself would of been the first port of call. But I understand that you wanted to cut that out and send to your guy in lieu of just getting some instant return. Judging by DLT222's experiences with him he would of probably helped you sort it. I think it's unfair to expect every seller to know the provenance of every part of a watch, especially vintage pieces, and when buying on eBay.. Its a real headspin. It's also fair to say that the person who sold the watch to the vendor wasn't so upfront about the watch and it's history. Either way good luck mate!

 

I've raised a paypal dispute and will be calling trading standards on Thursday. I'll post updates as I go.

 

Closing the loop - Harrogate Vintage Watches have politely closed the dispute in my favour and given me a full refund. Many thanks all for the advice.