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Vintage collectors opinions on guidelines for caring for "modern classics"?

  1. cgaites Oct 12, 2018

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    Hello all,

    I've been frequenting this forum for about a year now, and have found it to be a wonderful resource. I love looking at the pictures everyone posts of their vintage Speedmasters and thinking to myself, "Someday..." I'm placing this thread in the vintage forum vs. the modern forum as it seems more applicable. Mods, please feel free to move if you disagree.

    My question actually comes from the world of cars. In addition to collecting watches, I also sort of collect cars (I have two non-daily drivers, so it is a small collection). As with watches, the most valuable cars are those that are totally original. When a collector has have a barn find Ferrari or Bugatti, they leave it exactly as it was found - rust, weathering, damage and all - to maximize value. These cars are effectively expensive pieces of art, and are no longer cars to be driven. However, if you take a step away from those most valuable classics, and into the realm of more pedestrian stuff like 60's muscle cars or air-cooled 911s, originality is still important, but the rules are a bit different. As these cars are still driven, the most valuable examples are those that have up-to-date maintenance, including recent replacement of "consumables". In the car world, "consumables" are things like tires, brake pads and discs, clutches, belts and hoses, etc. In this realm, when it comes to consumables, replacement with OEM is best, replacement with aftermarket reproductions is second best, and leaving the originals is worst.

    My car collection consists of what I'd call "modern classics". Not old enough to be vintage or valuable, but well passed the bottom of the depreciation curve with values trending definitively upward (think 3rd gen RX-7s, E30 BMWs, the better water-cooled Porsches, etc.). The rules for these modern classics are that you replace consumables with the best available replacements to maximize value. You also fix dents and rust, repaint sun faded body panels, and make similar cosmetic improvements.

    My watch collection also consists of "modern classics". Think reference 3950 Speedies, reference 2254 Seamasters, or 5 digit Subs. My question (Finally!) is, in the opinion of vintage watch collectors, what are the guidelines for owning such watches to maximize both wear-ability and long-term value? I think I understand that polishing is a no-no, but what kinds of services are considered the equivalent of replacing "consumables" in the watch collecting world? What kind of cosmetic refurbishment are acceptable without killing the future value of my budding collection?

    Thanks in advance for any input.
     
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  2. mgmarsh39 Oct 12, 2018

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    From my minimal experience, crystal replacement is acceptable as long as you go for an original. If one cannot be sourced, then be sure to keep your original. Polishing is ok to a certain extent, but never in excess. Always service with certified watchmakers, and make sure they only use original parts etc, just like cars.

    I'm like you, and love cars, so it's only a natural progression to also love vintage watches. I think my favorite part of owning both the watches and the cars is the service experience. Getting to talk with like minded individuals and connecting on that level.
     
  3. chipsotoole Oct 12, 2018

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    Pretty much none is the short answer. An original replacement crown perhaps... Some 70's big size models had a kind of "lapping" effect that you could put back without hurting the value too much..But as you mention, all attempts to do any kind of polish ends up taking away the "lines" and look gaudy. You can overhaul movements and buy a donor movement for parts, but try to remain as genuine as you can.I'm having to use a couple of small Tissot 2481 parts in my omega Cobra/Stingray 1481, (same movement) but I wouldn't personally drop the whole 2481 movement in, even though it's working.
    . I'm a relative newbie at this game, but when you read the minutae with which people here on the OF analyse pictures or answer peoples prospective purchases, you learn quickly that the devil is in the tiniest detail. If you're serious about getting into collecting watches, you first need to decide what kind of collector you want to be. This is very much dependent on the time you'll take to trawl online, or visit pawn shops and yard sales,..how much time you'll read into the subject. Also how much you're going to spend on the hobby...Are you going for high grade collector quality, or are you going for say an example of a model, brand, or movement? Here's an example for me this week...I have a thing for Lemania's, but I'm also a father to 4 boys under 14 so my disposable income is really small..I'm a bottom feeder so to speak.I'll take on all sort of interesting cheaper watches that many would instantly dismiss. I saw this early 70's (an era I kinda love) Lemania 1340 loaded BWC chunky monkey on ebay Germany.. original bracelet, dial good but colours faded,TV shape which is generally more unloved in watch collecting circles. The mineral Glass is scratched (there's a challenge) , themovement is tired but it is working and it is an extremely HIGH quality one. The first automatic chronograph made in the world basically. This movement is a twin of a Speedmaster mark 3 and the Seamaster Jedi- the omega 1040. ...Speedies and Jedi Seamasters of this era fetch somewhere in the region of 2000-2500 USD. I simply couldn't justify that...I paid 286 Euros for this..and i'm really chuffed cos I think it's a bargain.....others of course may not!! ;)...I don't know what modern classic vintage watches are exactly. There are debates about this...
    IMG_3418.jpg
     
    Edited Oct 12, 2018
  4. Taddyangle Convicted Invicta Wearer Oct 12, 2018

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    I think it depends on the watch, at least for me.

    I just had my Ed White serviced. No polish, at all, no parts changed. Same with my Gemini 4, service only, no polish.

    When I had my modern Ploprof serviced, that included a polish, crown and handset change. I was fine with this type of service for the Ploprof.

    Currently my Gold Skeleton Speedmaster is being serviced. I requested no polish (sent it to Omega Switzerland). I get it back in 10 weeks.

    Basically if it is a Speedmaster, I will never have it polished.
     
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  5. ChrisN Oct 12, 2018

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    In my opinion, treat your modern watches the same as modern cars. Use, service regularly and accept they may go up or down in value. Replace any internal parts on your watches with manufacturers parts and try not to replace the exterior parts. So, a new barrel is not an issue but try not to replace the hands unless you have to.

    My feeling is that you should enjoy these things for what they are - it seems unlikely that any are particularly rare or irreplaceable so they should be used as intended. If you are thinking about how the value might increase in a few years then you're probably hoping for something that won't happen and it could affect the way you use them now, which would be a real shame. These things should be enjoyed and I've never thought about how the value of my 1997 Speedmaster (for example) might be affected by using it.

    @chipsotoole - What parts are missing from your Omega 1481? I think most parts are easily available.

    Cheers, Chris
     
  6. Dan S Oct 12, 2018

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    I think that anything with tritium is verging on collectible, so you should try to maintain originality in those pieces if it's not too late.
     
  7. chipsotoole Oct 12, 2018

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    Here's a perfect example of a very high end collector. He's just name checked 4 top notch and staggeringly expensive timepieces and knows any messing with them (except the modern Ploprof) will affect the value.
    Now you're asking..I can't find my watch guys message...but one wheel in the drive chain for sure and perhaps a pivot. Nothing that will turn it into a multi-coloured Frankenmonster I was careful about that...He wanted to simply swap out the movements!!! The working 2481 was so cheap it was easier to pick it up than go fishing for individual wee parts and I'll put it in storage afterwards as a future donor..
     
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  8. BenBagbag Oct 12, 2018

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    In the last few months, I've heard people talk a bit more about the screw heads on Speedmasters and whether they show much wear. In that vein, some collectors feel that watches shouldn't be serviced unless totally necessary. I know collectors who just get watches to running but don't worry too much about accuracy. Basically trying to keep watches in as close to the barn find they found them in.

    I also think sentiment is changing on reluming a speedy, with @Spacefruit speaking a bit more about how watches should look good. So perhaps lume is also moving over to "consumable."

    Interesting thread, excited to follow.
     
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  9. Om3ga321 Oct 12, 2018

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    Speaking for myself I don't mind the crown changed.Pushers need to stay the same especially on the 105.012 model Speedies.
    Even a slight polish on the case is a big no no.
     
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  10. cgaites Oct 12, 2018

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    Thanks for the responses. Very interesting how many parallels there seem to be between cars and watches - and how many people are into both.

    So far it seems the general guidelines are:

    1) Wear and enjoy, value is secondary unless a true collector grade example (e.g. NOS, barely worn and kept in a safe, etc.).

    2) To maintain a nice “driver”, mechanical service is good, but leave the cosmetics as untouched as possible. Replacing parts is OK if needed, but keep the major components like the movement, caseback, and dial as “numbers matching” as possible.

    3) Parts where it is generally OK to replace with OEM are individual movement components, crystals, crowns, seals, and pushers. Caveat to that is, if the parts are unique to a particular narrow reference or time period, or if OEM replacements are no longer available, then don’t replace.

    4) Polishing is a big no.

    Sounds good to me. My goal with my watches (and cars) is not that they be investments. Rather what I hope for is that when enthusiasts see them they think, “that’s a nice example” instead of, “its a shame he ruined it”. I fully intend to use them as much as I can, but hope to keep them nice enough that rising values offset the depreciation from usage.

    Also regarding my definition of “modern classic”:

    To me these are watches or cars that were well received by enthusiasts when new, maybe didn’t sell in fantastic numbers by virtue of being too niche for a mass audience, and whose aesthetic has proven to be somewhat timeless (as opposed to of its era). Most cars in this category now are from the 90s or early 2000s. I assume similar is true of watches.


    Have a great day.
     
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  11. chipsotoole Oct 12, 2018

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    Can you give me an idea of what kind of cars you might be meaning here. ...Sierra Cosworth? VW Scirocco?
    I wouldn't really know where to start with watches_- other than perhaps your niche comment..you might try smaller or less well known high end companies outside the big hitters...Companies say like Eberhard & Co. ...timeless design is what they all strive for and very few achieve. Certainly I'd be aware about the fickle nature of watch size fashion. Smaller is possibly coming back round 33-40 mm is a good area to start.
     
  12. Davidt Oct 12, 2018

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    Who cares whether something is collectible or not - buy what you like, vintage or modern.

    The issue with polishing is it destroys the original lines and looks shit. Even Omega serviced watches don't replicate the sharp edges perfectly.

    Vintage/modern - I don't polish (actually I don't own anything modern but if i did I certainly wouldn't polish it).
     
  13. KAP Oct 12, 2018

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    Interesting thread and discussion.

    Whenever I have a watchmaker service a watch, I request they provide me with any of replaced parts. I can then make a decision on what is worth retaining long-term. I generally will keep any original replaced part. While I haven't had such parts as hands or crowns replaced, those I would save so they could be swapped back in the future if I or a future owner wanted to. Fortunately, storing old watch parts do not take much space.
     
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  14. TexOmega Oct 13, 2018

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    When I see buggered up screw heads, I imagine just how badly the really intricate work was done at some point, and slide the value scale down.

    And, of course, if I see a piece of a paperclip...…….